[glofishx]

well the worst that can happen is that he does not get hired: no salary increase, no equity.

And this is not even the worst that can happen. I have withdrawn (let them expire) offers from people that after receiving my first offer tried to strongarm ridiculous bonuses. The reason I have withdrawn the offer is that it made me clear that the person does not understand their worth to us - hence would likely be a trouble later on. I did not negotiate and just let the deadline stand.

I am tired of all these advices that make it sound as if asking excessive bonuses and money does not give off bad impressions. It actually does.

[chimeracoder]

> The reason I have withdrawn the offer is that it made me clear that the person does not understand their worth to us - hence would likely be a trouble later on.

Or just doesn't have much experience with (salary) negotiation, which, for most roles that aren't sales or HR, isn't necessarily a problem. The people who do this for a living (employers, recruiters, etc.) are always going to know the rules and the social norms better than the ones that don't (most employees).

I don't really know what you mean by "ridiculous" in that situation, so it's hard to draw any conclusions, but I will say that most good engineers are pretty bad at negotiation skills, and IMHO withdrawing an offer is quite an extreme move.

[glofishx]

Let me add to all this that we first did an informal negotiation with the prospective employee with a quite lengthy back and forth that led us to put those terms in writing.

But only when he had the official letter did it occur to him to ask for a larger office (it is not possible as he should have seen during the visit, travel funds (???), extra time off and more salary. It was extremely annoying.

[fsloth]

"And this is not even the worst that can happen. I have withdrawn (let them expire) offers from people that after receiving my first offer tried to strongarm ridiculous bonuses. The reason I have withdrawn the offer is that it made me clear that the person does not understand their worth to us"

I thought negotiations are iterative. Start from an anchor value, then the other party suggests a higher number with reasoning why this would be a fairer value, and continue until an agreement or batna is reached.

If the response was "screw you, I want 1 million" I would understand you aggrievances but typically resenting employees attempts at negotiation gives out the impression that you want only complacent underdogs as employees.

[learnstats2]

I've been on the other side of this and it was absolutely fine.

I asked for fair market value, i.e. I understood I was asking for less than my value to the company. When this elicited a bitchy response along the lines of what you have said, I understood enough about the company to find a better job.

Companies that won't negotiate with you over salary, won't negotiate with you over anything. A toxic place to work.

[gjmulhol]

There is an argument to be made that it is better for a company to make a fair offer and not negotiate. There have been long patterns in many industries that people who negotiate harder get better results, leading to large wage gaps (particularly between genders). A fair, open, honest, and frank discussion about the position of the company is best, but I think a hard negotiation creates a norm that can be toxic.

[learnstats2]

> people who negotiate harder get better results, leading to large wage gaps (particularly between genders).

This can only be true if companies are not making fair offers in the first place, i.e. the wage gaps result from a culture of underpaying employees.

I agree that this should be better addressed, but forbidding employees from negotiating is only harmful.

[kzhahou]

If someone doesn't want to negotiate at all, it's because they're trying to get the best of you.

That said, to negotiate effectively, both sides have to be willing to walk away. It's the fundamental premise.

[rfrey]

This sounds like you are actually tired of uppity employees who don't know their place.