[melling]

Google Maps says Koreatown and Venice Beach are 15 miles apart. Some time late in the 21st Century or early 22nd Century humans will realize that great mass transit can really make life more enjoyable, and that'll be a 15 minute commute. It's pretty amazing how bad things have to get before people wake up.

[_sfvd]

You would think so, but the traffic and public transit in LA doesn't work that way.

It's too congested even for buses to quickly get by. I've walked/biked 5+ miles faster than it took a bus to get where I was going during peak traffic hours, and I am no avid runner/biker.

I've spent 30 minutes trying to go 1 mile.

I've been stuck in completely stopped traffic at 3AM caused by multiple concerts let out at the same time

One time I remember walking to the bank 2 blocks from my house. It took about 5 minutes because I was taking it slow. By the time I got out of the bank, and went outside to walk home, an impromptu Katy Perry concert had started (That's Hollywood & Highland for you) and there wasn't even walking room for blocks in every direction. I ended up having to loop around everything and it took me 20+ minutes to get home.

Basically, the traffic/transit in LA is not a predictable monster. When it comes to getting from point A to point B, no quick glance at a map can help you guess how long anything will take.

[airza]

By which you mean, Americans will realize it.. :)

[nine_k]

Specifically, West Coast Americans :)

[shoegumfoot]

> Some time late in the 21st Century or early 22nd Century humans will realize that great mass transit can really make life more enjoyable, and that'll be a 15 minute commute.

Nah, the second phase of the Expo line will be complete in a few years, and the purple line will be finished long before then, too. Won't be quite 15 minutes, but should be under 25.

[bgroins]

LA had an excellent bus system. I've been riding it almost every day for 7 years now. Also, the author already said he had a 20 minute commute, but didn't say to where.

[waps]

Having commuted to work in Brussels, a city often described as having great mass transit (and when it's not busy, that's absolutely true)

Here's my observations :

1) despite not paying for itself (the state pays hundreds of millions yearly to make up for the losses of the public transport system) it's a little bit more expensive, per kilometer, than taking a car (train + metro vs gas). Even for longer distances, planes are actually cheaper than trains. If you get a company car and just pay for fuel, it's half the price. Otoh, parking in some places drives the price back up (but then you can park near a metro station and only use public transport for the last kilometer or so. Or a folding bike, I've had colleagues who did that).

2) when you want to use them to commute, they're not just busy, they're off the scale full. You can only stand and sometimes you miss your train because you literally can't squeeze in. (I tried first class for a week, but that makes it a multiple of the price of using a car, and you still need to stand)

3) the comfort level, compared to a car, is off the scale worse. You can take things along in a car, whereas there is a clear and very small capacity limit to what you can take on public transport. 40kg, backpack size, no more, groceries for a week is doable, furniture, electronics, not really doable (I tend to put those on a bike and walk home beside it). And I'm a 200 pound guy, I'd hate to think what the limits are if you're 80 pounds.

4) In Belgium you have one or two days per year where cars can't actually get around in the capital (frozen snow on the road combined with a lot of sloped roads makes it just too dangerous for cars, even if you walk you'll probably fall down painfully). A few more days accidents on the highways will mean you're late by 2-3 hours (I was once 7 hours late due to traffic). That is less than the days public transport doesn't work due to union actions. Because of the amount of times this happens, your boss will not, in fact understand. 5-10 days a year you can't get to work using public transport. With a car, 5 days a year you'll be 2 hours late and 1 day you won't show up.

5) If you calculate cars versus public transit capacities, it is obvious : cars scale better (I think this is mostly because car capacity expansions are cheaper for the government to implement, so they happen every time a rightist government comes to power in a given municipality, car capacity expansions happen, usually by diverting traffic. Public transport expansions happen once in a decade at best, and one line at a time. Recently a public transport line to the airport made traffic on a few lines much better)

Imho, the solution to public transport is fast, efficient, driver-less, door-to-door, car sharing. That can work, and won't be bogged down into a morass of substandard service by unions. We need to improve matters, and I no longer believe buses and trains and even metros are the answer.

Here's an article describing things from the perspective of a commuter http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/masstransit.htm

[Retric]

Cars are terrible at scaling. The core problem is roads take a lot of surface area so adding traffic lanes reduces density which forces longer commutes. Add to that you need parking at both ends which reduces density further. http://streets.mn/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/car-vs-bike-vs-...

They are also worse for the environment and kill lot's of people.

PS: Cars also have huge direct and indirect subsides, consider who pays for your parking space while at work? Hypothetically in a major city ~2 * 100$ parking spaces + ~100$ insurance = ~300$ a month or 15$ per workday day even if your car, gas, and roads where free.

[waps]

You're absolutely right that cars don't scale well in theory, but when it comes to expanding capacity when that is necessary, cars outperform public transport. This is mostly because space is not often in short supply, but money always is.

Cars seem to have much better support for their expansion from governments, and that this results in better real-world scaling. It seems to me this is in no small part because car infrastructure is way cheaper per extra person of capacity than mass transit.

Both cars and mass-transit have huge subsidies, at least in Belgium.

[Retric]

Belgium has decent public transit and is below the point where cars have issues with scaling. It's really more an issue with sprawling mega city's where the suburbs can only expand in one direction. So ocean / mountains on one side, north and south huge city's so everyone is coming from one direction.

[barrkel]

little bit more expensive, per kilometer, than taking a car (train + metro vs gas)

The TCO of a wholly-owned personal transportation vehicle is substantially more than the cost of fuel. It's hard to come out ahead, financially, unless you're a semi-decent mechanic, don't mind buying old machinery, and don't value your spare time very highly. Something bombproof and frugal, like a C90 underbone, could do well. A car, not so much.

[c22]

Also the costs the state incurs for the train include things like laying and maintaining miles of tracks, you'd have to roll road maintenance into your auto's tco to make a comparison.

[waps]

You're right of course. But here's the thing :

Car : euro 0.4/km, travel time into brussels during heavy traffic : about 50 minutes, 30 if I'm willing to work 6am-3pm (I'm not). 21 (working days per month) * 35 (kilometer) * 2 (there and back) * 0.4 = 580 euro/month, 700 if you finance it using a loan (I don't need to). This pays for a comfortable "monovolume" car (big enough for a family, but certainly not a big car by Belgian standards). Note that this effectively comes with all sorts of bonuses, greater comfort, protection from the weather, and much cheaper and quicker groceries. I don't need parking where I work, but if I did it'd be another 50-100 per month everywhere except the European quarter. If we're talking a company car (tax deductible for companies in Belgium and thus very common), cost drops to 200-300 euros, and some companies (ie. if you're willing to do IT consultancy), drops to 100-300, depending on car, deducted from pre-tax pay. This is assuming the car's value goes to zero over a period of 4 years, whereas in practice I've always sold my cars for between 3-4000 euros after 4 years.

Public transport travel time : at least 2 hours (mostly due to waiting). Cost of bus card + train card (for one trajectory only during week days) = 150 to 300 euros (bus, depending on whether you need bus in one or two cities, so if you can get from home -> station without bus or from work -> station without bus, it's 150, otherwise 300. For me it's 300), plus 150 for the train. Add to that the cost of various other trips that you'll need to make that aren't covered by this, but are covered by having a car, and you easily get to 600 euros per month (groceries, going to town, visiting people, ...). Since I drop off kids at school using the car, if I included the cost to do that using public transport too, it'd be over 700 (2*60 euros per month to have the school bus pick them up on a street where I would worry every day they they might get killed, plus it would prevent me from leaving for work until they are on the bus).

Oh, and for that price, you get this : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/By62kxwIAAAX3Om.jpg:large

It's not a contest. Car is way cheaper, even disregarding the difference in comfort. Is that because of government subsidies for the car ? Yes. Otoh, the government also sponsors the mass transit quite a bit. How does it stack up in "real" costs ? I don't know. How much would the other disadvantages of using public transport add up to ? Don't know, but I don't think it's zero. (much less free time, less time working because of the kids limits, ...)

Of course it depends on the trajectory you take. If I had to "cross" Brussels (east-west or north-south), I'd take the train, and I know people who do so, but I'd also find another job or move, because it's simply not doable.

[greggarious]

Out of curiosity, where were you commuting from? Just the suburbs of Brussels or another city?

(I have met people who, for example, might commute from Berlin to Dresden daily and it always boggled my mind)

[waps]

About 35 kilometres from another city.