[xiaq]

This amazes me, but it saddens me more.

On the one hand, I applaud the brilliance of John Oliver for presenting the NSA affair in an immediately alarming way and attracting the attention of the average people.

On the other hand, people really have to think rationally and responsibly to tackle serious political issues. John Oliver is not going to work every time, and sometimes we don't have a John Oliver at all.

I am deeply depressed by the political ignorance of the common people in the US. I have always assumed that political ignorance stems from political oppression, which seems to be case in China (which is my home country). But now it seems to be a consequence of universal human stupidity instead.

[TeMPOraL]

I think that people are ignorant, because why wouldn't they be? They have zero individual influence, 99% of things the government talks about openly is irrelevant bullshit and part of shaping the voter's sympathy. So basically if it doesn't influence your daily life and you have zero control over it, why should you care?

So it doesn't seem surprising at all that people in modern democracies are ignorant of most of the politics. I think that many in tech, who are acutely aware of the significance of the NSA affair, care about it not because of politics, but because it's wrong and hurts people.

[xiaq]

> So basically if it doesn't influence your daily life and you have zero control over it, why should you care?

I cannot really argue against this pessimistic picture of democracy.

> I think that many in tech, who are acutely aware of the significance of the NSA affair, care about it not because of politics, but because it's wrong and hurts people.

Your definition of politics is very weird to me. Since preventing wrong things that happen on a big scale fits perfectly into my definition of political activities (think about the American civil rights movement).

[TeMPOraL]

>> So basically if it doesn't influence your daily life and you have zero control over it, why should you care?

> I cannot really argue against this pessimistic picture of democracy.

I on the other hand don't see a different way. It seems to me that if you really want to change something for the better, you need to steer clear of any kind of politics. It's like a swamp or quicksand; if you enter it, you'll get stuck there.

> Your definition of politics is very weird to me. Since preventing wrong things that happen on a big scale fits perfectly into my definition of political activities (think about the American civil rights movement).

My working definition of politics here is anything that involves politicians and especially political parties, because anything they touch immediately gets corrupted and turned into a way for said officials to safeguard their careers. You may say I'm cynical, but that's what I see all around, living in a democracy. I admit there may be a better word than "politics" for what I'm talking about, but I can't find it now.

[XorNot]

People who claim they want to "avoid politics" tend to create the most toxic political situations around them. You "avoid politics" by generally becoming a despot.

[extra88]

What you call politics I might call partisanship to differentiate it from a broader sense of politics.

[balabaster]

There also may be a better word than "democracy" for what you're talking about ;)

[tripzilch]

"Deadlocked two-party rule with <that particular US election system where it sometimes hardly matters what you vote just because of where you live>"

You know how, if you question people about democracy enough, after a bit they'll usually admit that "okay it's not optimal, but it's the best we got / came up with so far".

That means you can fuck it up. It means you can do democracy badly. It means that just because it is technically a "democracy", doesn't mean it's working properly.

[nfoz]

The claim was about political ignorance of common people in the US. You extended that to "people in modern democracies". I think this is incorrect.

In Canada, I find people are typically more politically aware if not involved, as compared to the US where I live now.

[esalman]

I wouldn't say people are inherently stupid. Rather they have become such by design or as the outcome of a system. There are many faces to this 'design' or 'system'- like capitalism, 'american dream' and such.

[mrits]

When people are using doublespeak to defend their position it is often helpful to use off colored shock statements to get your point across.

[vanderZwan]

> On the other hand, people really have to think rationally and responsibly to tackle serious political issues.

While I agree with that, the limitation to that approach is that the rational part of the mind is not in control - it can at best guide emotion.

Daniel Kahneman has a great metaphor for this: think of the rational aspect of the mind as the rider of an elephant, and the emotional, intuitive part as this elephant[0]. Sure, under most circumstances the rider can guide the elephant, but the elephant can want different things than the rider. In a way the elephant is more important, because if it doesn't work along the rider is helpless. You need to get the elephants to calm down and get along before it's riders can even bother with having a conversation.

[0] Ignoring for a moment the issues with clear-cut boundaries like that, or the limitations of making sense of the mind in terms of two other minds.

EDIT: I left a comment earlier on reddit[1] that indirectly talks about this as well:

You have to realize he's not trying to reach out to people like you who already are aware of these issues and agree that something has to be done. He's trying to get the point across to people who are most likely to resist thinking about it, for all the wrong but understandable reasons.

Like with race, climate change, gender issues, religion, those who need this stuff to be explained to the most are also the most likely to resist, because they literally Can't Deal With It. It's called fragility[2]:

“a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include outward display of emotions such as anger, fear and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence and leaving the stress-inducing situation.”

Replace "racial" in that quote with any sensitive issue you want, like "gender", "political" or "religious". Everyone has this to some degree, and the first thing to do if you want to have a healthy debate is become aware of everyone's point of fragility and somehow circumvent it so we can have a reasonable discussion. Even more so when trying to reach out to the people who suffer from this the most. It is really important we keep trying to do that, no matter how frustrating it can get, because the ignorance of even a few affects everyone in society, especially in a democracy.

It's a real problem and John Oliver even lampshades it, calling Snowden the IT guy in the office you don't want to learn from. He may appear to be shooting Snowden down, but what he's doing is approaching this from point of view of the many people with this mindset. He's acknowledging their experience (not to be confused with viewpoint) as a valid one, and trying to give them a way to connect to the topic regardless, with jokes and dick pics.

[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/31lqjh/edward_sno...

[2] http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-w...