Ask HN: Feeling pressured to accept startup job offer quickly

[yahth]

Hi,

I recently got offered a startup job at a nice little company in SF. Everything seems OK with the company and job. After going back and forth a little on the compensation we came to an agreement.

However, they are pressuring me to take the job asap because they have a short list and who ever says 'yes' first gets the job.

I've never encountered this situation before. Is this normal?

Here's something else that makes me suspicious: I'm a terrible interviewer and not a great programmer and am suspicious that there's a company that will accept me. The interview process was a bit long and through with a phone screen and an office visit and a follow up interview. Maybe this is the interview I finally just nailed after many failed interviews. I can't really tell.

I'm a little worried about leaving my current job because now I'm wondering if this is just a tactic or foible on the part of the CEO or is it an actual sign of something is wrong.

[IgorPartola]

Chances are there is nothing nefarious going on here, just incompetence. This company probably thinks they have stumbled onto the magic hiring formula. They are not the first or last to reinvent terrible hiring or management practices. Personally, I would refuse such an offer, and tell them why. Maybe they will learn.

As for being a bad interviewee and developer, shoot me an email. I am not in SF, but I am a strong interviewer/interviewee and if you want I can do a mock/practice interview with you. As for being a bad developer, the secret truth is that most of us are terrible until we learn enough to be less terrible. We usually learn on the job, not before it. There are brilliant programmers out there, but you don't need to be brilliant to contribute value to an organization.

[yahth]

> As for being a bad interviewee and developer, shoot me an email.

Also, thank you for your very kind offer for doing mock interviews. That's very generous of you! :)

[yahth]

> Chances are there is nothing nefarious going on here...

I agree, and I should have probably mentioned that in my initial comment. I just don't know how common this sort of thing is. They seem like good people, and there's a lot of work to do.

maybe after doing some work like that I won't be so terrible. :)

Thanks!

[nnd]

A bit offtopic, but...

Can you give us any advice on how to solve interview challenges faster and unstick under the pressure?

[IgorPartola]

My approach has been to treat it less like a "they are judging my technical abilities" and more like a conversation. I have only been in one interview where the people interviewing me really put on the pressure. Otherwis, it is usually my own interpretation that is putting on the pressure on myself. Once I started treating it like a friendly chat, it got a lot easier.

When you are asked technical questions, do your best to answer, but don't sweat it if you cannot answer fully. Know that with enough time you can most likely figure it out, then figure out as much as you can on the spot.

Lastly, know your stuff. Being a strong interviewee doesn't mean you can get any job. It just means that you can show off your own are of expertise well. Figure out what that is, and if need be improve on it. Side projects help a lot: to learn, to boost your own confidence and as a resume builder.

[nnd]

Thanks you, that a great advice. I think you are right about applying pressure on youself, that might be the case. I'm getting very anxious trying to get things right from the first shot.

Another thing I noticed is that the less you care about the outcome of the interview, the more likely you are to succeed.

That said, it seems that the key to master those interviews seems to be the mind control, rather than raw experience and intelligence.

On your last point: I don't have any problems showing off expertise and I have a bunch of cool side-projects. The problem is that I'm weak at the low-pass filter of a basic technical screening.

[lgieron]

Note that this might not work in the google-style whiteboard coding questions. In these, you're usually judged on the output you manage to produce within the duration of the interview, and being chatty or even thoroughly explaining your thinking process will eat into those precious minutes.

[nnd]

That's debatable.

I actually had the same impression from my Google interview, but at the same time they claim that they actually judge you based on you cognitive skills, rather than the output.

[zo1]

Easy: Don't agree with it (unless you're really desperate for the job).

The amount of times when "quick thinking" and "fast-solution, now, give it, before this clock ticks!!" actually happens in day-to-day situations is ridiculously tiny. So testing for it in an interview is pointless, and I'd tell them just that.

[nnd]

I completely agree with you.

Unfortunately, the best companies use this interview process (at least for initial screening). Yes it is broken, but I think of it just as a set of hoops you have to jump through to show your ability to commit (i.e. in this case get better at algorithmic trivia).

I'm not desperate for any job, but I am desperate for a job in a breakout company.

[imsofuture]

Practice!

[nnd]

Sure there is not substitute for it, but I was looking for a more specific advice on how to practice.

[khuey]

No reputable employer would offer multiple people a single position simultaneously and give it to the first to say yes. That's a big red flag.

[joncalhoun]

I 100% agree with this, but just to play the hopeful optimist:

Is it possible there was a misunderstanding and the CEO meant he needs a decision from you so he can move on to their second best option if you say no?

I can understand their perspective if this was the case. They likely need to give everyone who applied quick responses, and some of those responses depend on whether you accept the offer. They also need to fill a role and it is generally assumed that someone applying for a position wants it and can decide quickly. You would be equally upset if a company listed a position they might be hiring for, but advertised it as a real opening.

[gojomo]

On the one hand:

If you in fact "came to an agreement" on compensation, why are you still not on-board? Was your negotiating position actually, "if you offer me $X then I'll stop asking for more but still need some number of days to think"?

Are you waiting to hear from other potential employers? Are there any red flags other than their impatience?

On the other hand:

If they've truly given multiple people offers simultaneously but said they'll only hire the one who accepts first, that's a bit of a red flag. (Are you sure they don't just need your definitive no to issue an offer to their next-choice?)

Often exploding offers are just bluster: if you made sense as a hire on this Monday, you'll usually make sense as a hire on the next Monday as well.

Back to the first hand:

You haven't quantified at all the deadlines they've suggested or that you think would be reasonable.

Maybe they're sensing a red-flag from you: "We came up to a compensation number they agreed to, but they still haven't said they'll join or even given us a date-certain when they'll answer. We'd better force the issue. We've been burned before waiting for Hamlets to make up their mind!"

Everyone wants to move fast, and be affirmatively wanted by their co-party. They don't just want to be a stalking-horse for a counter-offer from your current-employer, or your fall-back if another slower process falls through.

How much time would you want to take to decide, and what new information would you have after that much time goes by? They may legitimately think that if you're not enthusiastic now, just after the interviews and negotiations, then N more days of holding a spot for you isn't going to help.

[yahth]

> Maybe they're sensing a red-flag from you: "We came up to a compensation number they agreed to, but they still haven't said they'll join or even given us a date-certain when they'll answer. We'd better force the issue. We've been burned before waiting for Hamlets to make up their mind!"

This is completely fair and I think they want to move fast being a small company and all. There's lot of interesting work to do and I'd like to help them do it. They seem like good people anyways.

I'm mostly waiting to hear back from other interviews I've had.

Thanks for your input.

[random567]

Don't take it (or at least treat it as an enormous red flag). Only companies in a position of weakness do this, which means there is something wrong with them. My first job I gave in to an exploding offer like that and it did not end well (though it taught me a ton because I got to be a rock star)

BUT - if you really think that you aren't a great programmer AND this job will give you the opportunity to level up your skills, then it could be worth it. (esp if your current job is not programming-related)

Otherwise, leave it in the dust - if you can get a job at 2 places (current job + this one), you can get a job at another place.

[yahth]

> BUT - if you really think that you aren't a great programmer AND this job will give you the opportunity to level up your skills, then it could be worth it. (esp if your current job is not programming-related)

Yes, this. I'm hoping that maybe I can not feel like such a loser for once if I take this job. I'll get stuff done and at least learn something.

My job so far has been not those things.

[dsl]

In my experience early stage startups do want people to accept quickly because they are operating on compressed timelines (we have X days to show Y progress before money runs out).

That said, if they offered the position to multiple people... huge red flag. You should post the name of the company here so it shows up in Google results for them.

[yahth]

Thanks for your feedback.

> In my experience early stage startups do want people to accept quickly because they are operating on compressed timelines (we have X days to show Y progress before money runs out).

This is what I figured. I am trying to see it from their eyes.

> That said, if they offered the position to multiple people... huge red flag. You should post the name of the company here so it shows up in Google results for them.

I'm not prepared to do that to them yet because I don't think there's malice on their part.

[brandonlipman]

I have been through a very similar situation. I would be cautious as if they are rushing you they may be trying to hide information from you. One thing I would spend a lot of time looking at is other employees that they have/had. Look at there work history and talk to them if you can.

From my experience (lesson learned the hard way), one thing to be 100% confident on is that what you are signing, the employment agreement, is solid. Pay the money for a good lawyer to look it over.

Let me know if you need a reference for a lawyer.

Also them saying, "who ever says 'yes' first gets the job" would make me very suspicious as they are not valuing your skills.

[ChuckMcM]

By law, when you received your written offer letter it included an expiration date. If you accept before then, they have to employ you, if you don't accept by then, they are not obligated to give you a job even if you say yes.

Start ups are moving quickly and trying to get to the next milestone. That often means they really want people on or off, but not off "thinking about it."

That said, it sounds like you already made up your mind right? You are having second thoughts so own that and say "Thanks, but no thanks." and keep looking and/or doing what ever it is you are doing.

[ctvo]

A few questionable statements here.

Can you provide a source for your claim that 1) offer letters require an expiration date 2) they have to employ you if you accept?

In the US (his situation is in SF), employment is at-will and offer letters are not contracts. They can cancel the offer at anytime and after acceptance, can terminate your employment at anytime.

[ChuckMcM]

Note, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a manager and I've been through the "managing within the law" training many times :-) That said, I found a relevant case ...

Toscano v. Greene Music, 124 Cal.App.4th 685 (2004), the California Forth District Court of Appeal held that a job applicant who quits an at-will job to accept another at-will position may recover lost future wages from the employer who presented the job offer if: (1) the second employer withdraws its job offer and (2) the employee who accepted the job offer (relied on the promised job offer) can prove lost earnings by "substantial evidence." The court reasoned that promissory estoppel (reasonable reliance on a promise, here the job offer) entitles a plaintiff who quit a job to recover the "lost future wages" the employee can prove s/he would have earned from his or her former at-will employer had the plaintiff not relied on the promised employment and remained at his former job.

Generally in every version of the training I've been in the written offer letter is treated as a binding contract to employ within the constraints of the letter (background checks, expiration dates, etc)

[gojomo]

That's helpful, thanks, but to be clear: that case supports damages for having relied upon the offer and thus quitting a prior job, rather than any obligation-to-employ-in-the-offered-role. So:

* withdrawing the offer before the candidate quits the old job would seem to imply no damages (and no obligation-to-employ)

* any damages would be based on lost wages at the old job, not the new offered compensation rate or other benefits of the withdrawn position

It might also be kind of an interesting legal puzzle as to whether a person trapped in such a situation would be eligible for unemployment compensation. (It doesn't fit the usual eligibility pattern... but it is sort-of-involuntary... and the employer-who-withdrew-the-offer might prefer to take a hit on their unemployment-tax-rates as a way to offset their damages with unemployment-payments... but the system probably can't even model that.)

[jordanb]

> If you accept before then, they have to employ you

I've never seen a job offer that doesn't explicitly disclaim any implication that it's a binding agreement to employ you.

Maybe in California it's different but in Illinois it's unheard of that a company would legally obligate themselves to employ an engineer with their offer letter.

[ams6110]

Every offer letter I've ever received certainly had escape clauses. If it were binding it would be called a "contract" not an "offer."

That said, many startups are clueless about HR policies and employment law. My bet is that they just really don't know what they are doing.

[yahth]

> Start ups are moving quickly and trying to get to the next milestone.

I honestly think that's what it is; i don't ascribe malice towards my potential employer.

> That said, it sounds like you already made up your mind right? You are having second thoughts so own that and say "Thanks, but no thanks." and keep looking and/or doing what ever it is you are doing.

No, you're reading too much into it. :-) Even if they are bears to work for, there's lot of work to do that I'd like to do. Then, maybe I won't have a hard time getting a job next time.

Thanks for your input. It is not often I hear from management types, especially at the VP level. Thanks!

[rdtsc]

> If you accept before then, they have to employ you

Wonder if it even matters in a "at will" state. They can give you a job then fire you next day for some made up thing.

[istvan__]

Usually when people tell me this, I ask them to go with the other option (candidate in this case). Quite frankly, in SF there is a huge shortage of tech staff, so either they are lying to your face or they have something that attracts candidates to them that I am not aware of. Either case, I don't think it is ethical to do this.

[quipp]

Why are you looking for work? Can't be that great of a place if you're looking, so maybe the risk is worth it considering.

Why would you expect them not to pressure you?

They probably have some other canadidate who will cost more than you and they don't want to drop the ball with them.

Also, while they are pressuring you they are obviously not rushing. You have had three interviews with them. That must take some time, more than a few days I'd imagine (probably a week or two minimum).

Shit or get off the pot man :)

[BurningFrog]

I understand wanting a quick answers so they can offer the job to candidate B or C before they accept other offers.

But offering it to several people at once is not only really weird. It also a really poor algorithm. These people are bad engineers, and you do not want to work with them!

Your interviewing and skills insecurities are a whole separate topic.

When you go to a startup, you need to be ready for the job to end any day. If your current job is more secure, think about if you want to lose that.

[DevX101]

> These people are bad engineers

By OP's own admission, he's a bad engineer too. He should take it if the money is acceptable and he likes the company.

[zem]

no, if you're a bad engineer you really want to work with people who are "doing it right", so that you can learn from them.

[svec]

Do you have a written & signed offer letter? Or is it all verbal/over-the-phone? If it's not in writing & signed, then it's not real.

And as many others are saying, it's a HUGE red flag that the company said they offered the job to more than just you - it's a deal breaker, in my opinion.

Knowing only what you've written here, I would tell the company "thanks but no thanks" and walk away.

[striking]

Don't give in to pressure. Double-check the facts, because they might be pressuring you so that you miss something. Make sure that they value you.

If they're legitimately what you're looking for, though, it may just be inexperience on their CEO's part. The pressure may just be incidental.

Having answered none of your concerns, I wish you the best of luck.

[jacquesm]

Never ever agree to anything at all under pressure. If that's what it takes for the offering party they are either incompetent or malicious there is no pay-off in finding out which. That goes for hiring offers but also for any other kind of offer.

The one exception I can think of for exploding offers is if a key employee has left and the company will lose direction if the position isn't filled immediately. This normally is not the case in start-ups.

[nartz]

Have you done your due diligence - is it a good place to work? Are there smart people there? Are you going into a job you actually want to?

If so, go for it. You'll never know until you do.

If you have reservations, or need more time, be up front and tell them that (and see what they say). The hiring process is like sales, there is a need to 'close' people so you create artificial pressure so you can get people to make a decision (and take them off the market).

[mind_heist]

Well - While a bunch of folks here are telling this could be a red flag (and rethink / walk away ), I just want to present the other side of the story.

(1) Managers/Companies also have deadlines when it comes to hiring a candidate. And if there is an impending "Hiring Freeze" that is about to be enforced , the desperation to hire someone goes up. This happens in large companies ( I m not sure about startups though); In these cases - the hiring Managers feel its OK for a candidate fall short of a bunch of expectations . They might as well have a resource that can get some work done , instead of not hiring any one ( and be stuck with one less resource for the next few months) . Most of the hiring freezes last one quarter. Sometimes , it might last two quarters - and it mounts a lot of pressure on the existing members of the team.

(2) Hiring managers (sometimes) look for potential than what you are currently capable of. You might have not the exact skills they are looking for - but you might have shown enough enthusiasm about the role / and might have strong indicators that you could get the job done for them.

Its fairly possible either one of these or both could be happening in your case.

[chaosfactor]

This is called an exploding offer. It's not really real.

[jakejake]

I've interviewed before where, once the offer was made, they did want me to decide rather quickly. This was a startup that was reputable, popular and growing extremely quickly. However they didn't make me feel as if I was racing against other candidates for the spot - they just wanted to get to work.

I would just make sure to do your research and see if you can find anything about this company or the main people involved and decide if you trust them.

By the way - most startups will fail. That is the reality. If you are going to work at a startup you need to be willing to make risky career moves.

[grumblestumble]

I moved to the Bay Area about a year ago and interviewed at more startups than I'd care to count. The time-pressure offer is pretty much SOP in my experience - 48 hours for a response was the usual limit. Personally, I find it tacky and pathetic, and yep, I ended up going with someone who gave me a week to make my decision. It has far less to do with them "wanting to move on to the next thing" than them wanting to prevent you from following through with other interviews you may be in process with.

[crdoconnor]

It's a sales tactic. It usually means that they are lowballing you.

[huhtenberg]

It doesn't "usually" mean that. They may simply need to get someone really quickly.

[crdoconnor]

Unlikely. Training ramp up until a developer becomes fully productive usually takes months. Hiring quickly is a false economy if I ever saw one.

The times when it's been used on me, the company in question has never been in a hurry to hire.

[err4nt]

My take on the situation is that if they are hiring the first (pre-approved) person to say 'Yes!' for a position, then they care more about the position than the person. My gut says that you wouldn't have sufficient job security, because to them, even in the hiring process you're expendable and intercheangeable. You're lucky if they used your name instead of 'Dear Applicant' so they could just blast out the same message to all candidates.

Work for people who value your person, and say: "I'm willing to pay x dollars to have YOU on the team!"

If it was me and this situation went down, it would be hard, but I would reply with this: "I would love to work with you, but at this point it doesn't seem clear that you want to work with me. Let me know when you are certain that I am the person you want on the team, and we can talk about my availability at that time."

[fsk]

I've had job offers revoked, but that happened when I was unemployed at the time.

If they're disorganized or unethical, that increases the chance they will fail in 3-12 months. It also increases the chance that you might feel the need to leave again after working there.

[saluki]

It is a red flag, but they may be in a hurry to get someone on board or maybe misspoke about first to say yes is in.

If you think you can learn, level up your skills there and the compensation is satisfactory I would lean toward accepting.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Don't let an opportunity slip by. You can always give it a go, see how you like it, learn and add to your resume. Then if it's not working out you can look for a new position.

[6a68]

Exploding offers are a standard move in the VC startup playbook. You're probably going to get a standard "just an engineer" startup experience. Is this what you want?

Here, read this and think it over: https://al3x.net/2013/05/23/letter-to-a-young-programmer.htm...

[tw8845]

Go with your gut. If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. This advice has never served me wrong, although I have been burned plenty of times before by attempts to rationalize around red flags.

[hkmurakami]

1-2 weeks is reasonable. I've had an exploding offer of 2 days given to me before. That was negotiable if they wanted you and you just said "thx but I need longer". YMMV.

[gorbachev]

Go with your gut feeling. Something is making you unsteady about the company. Either clarify it with the company or decline the offer.

Either way don't accept an offer you have reservations.

[Kalium]

I would suggest pushing back against the pressure. Tell them that you don't appreciate it and you'll decide in your own time after you get the offer in writing.

[forkandwait]

Lame, red flag, tell them to stuff it.

[MichaelCrawford]

If there is anything I regret about my career, it is that many times I have agreed to things without really taking time to think them through.

It would be reasonable for them to provide a specific deadline, so that they could offer the job to someone else if you were to totally blow them off by not replying.

It's better to be broke and hungry than to take a job that you later regret.