[slipjack]

Yes, but suing costs a lot of money, so people don't tend to do it because they've "interpreted wrongly" a few isolated comments. She's suing 51 people - that's a lot of co-workers who just wondered why she opted to choose a career instead of a family.

(Also, asking women why they aren't staying home instead of having a family is the example HR uses when they talk about sexual discrimination. If you're working in a major corporation in America in the 21st Century, you should know that that question is not ok.)

[javert]

Men treat one another like shit all the time but then when a male asks a question, probably naively and innocently, it is suddently "not ok."

This is like a kind of thought policing, and it's sick.

[DINKDINK]

As a parallel, just because white people treat other white people poorly doesn't make institutional racism of white treating people of color poorly acceptable.

[javert]

I agree.

One of my problems with feminism is that it elevates women to a priviliged status while leaving males with low status behind, which just makes them worse off overall.

We have to stop this groupism and treat everyone properly, period. The only rights there are are human rights.

[DINKDINK]

>One of my problems with feminism is that it elevates women to a priviliged status while leaving males with low status behind

I disagree. You're confusing Misandry and Feminism.

[javert]

There is no one definition of feminism. Feminism is a "big tent" term. So generally, you can't sustain an argument that feminism doesn't say or do X, Y or Z, within a fairly broad scope.

That is my bigger problem with feminism: people with more reasonable views are providing cover for people with less reasonable views, since they all just call it "feminism."

For many feminists, feminism absolutely is about "overthrowing patriarchy," which in practice means taking retribution against all men---including all those men that are already at the bottom of the pyramid (like, say, the ones who serve as cannon fodder in wars). That is reprehensible. Those men need our help, not to be treated like crap even more.

The only kind of intellectual position that is a respectable one is an intellectual position that is well defined. "Big tent" terms and movements should be rejected. They always consist of better people providing cover for worse people. "Islam" is another example.

[dragonwriter]

> That is my bigger problem with feminism: people with more reasonable views are providing cover for people with less reasonable views, since they all just call it "feminism."

That applies to pretty much everything -- from agile development to democracy -- not just feminism.

> For many feminists, feminism absolutely is about "overthrowing patriarchy," which in practice means taking retribution against all men

The support for the claim that this is particularly interpretation of "overthrowing patriarchy" is in fact the goal of "many feminists" is non-obvious. Please identify it.

[DINKDINK]

>For many feminists, feminism absolutely is about "overthrowing patriarchy," which in practice means taking retribution against all men

Patriarchy is defined as "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it." Overthrowing such a system =/= 'taking retribution against all men'

[gress]

Do you think it's good that men treat each other like shit?

I think it can be just as oppressive when a stronger man treats a weaker man like shit as it is when a man treats a woman like shit. (By 'weak' in this context I am talking about power differential and not some inherent quality of the individual).

[venomsnake]

> Do you think it's good that men treat each other like shit?

Yes. If you can't take the heat, don't jump in the oven.

Respect is something that have to be earned. I will treat anyone with disrespect (bosses, presidents and pope included) until you earn it and show you have worth as a human being.

[gress]

So you treat people as if they have no worth until they do something you like. Got it.

[venomsnake]

I don't have to like it ... it just needs to be impressive to put the person above the sea of mediocrity.

[gress]

As judged by you.

[javert]

If this is your attitude, you will never earn my respect, and rightly so.

People should be treated with respect until they have shown they don't deserve it.

Your comment here betrays a nasty perspective on the human race.

[venomsnake]

> People should be treated with respect until they have shown they don't deserve it.

Is this an axiom (in which case further discussion is pointless, since your world view is incompatible with mine) or something you could prove.

[gress]

It's pretty simple. If you do otherwise, then you are doing a lot of needless harm.

[javert]

I wrote an answer, but HN gobbled it up because it said I was posting too fast. I don't want to write it again.