[vanzard]

> None of those are really comparable in effort, cost, or effectiveness

Does it matter? Some defrauded users WILL be persistent and WILL go through the effort of using these recourses, so they do keep merchants in check.

The fraud world is not as simplistic as you think it is ("oh crap customers can issue chargebacks against us, I guess we have to be honest now").

Fraudulent merchants will act fraudulently, regardless if chargebacks exist or not. Honest merchants will act honestly, regardless if chargebacks exist or not.

[sanswork]

Yes it matters to me because the fact that some customers will do it won't actually matter in getting me my money back if there is a problem. The occasional customer going through the process of paying to take a merchant to small claims court(and if they are out of state it will be a considerable expense) isn't going to stop fraud or problems like the one below it will just cause the merchants to pay those specific customers off.

The problem isn't just out right fraud. Say you come to my online store and buy something. My warehouse screws up and doesn't ship it but they list in the system they have. You call up in a week and say "Wheres by foo" and I say "We shipped it". With chargebacks I am encouraged to go investigate and solve the problem. Without I am encouraged to trust my system.

Or say I sell you tickets to an event. For whatever reason I go bankrupt before the event can exist. With a credit card I'm still getting my money back. Without chargebacks I'm boned.

So then you say "Well only use trusted merchants like Amazon!" which is great if you want to centralize all commerce on the internet to one provider per vertical but not really ideal.

[vanzard]

> it won't actually matter in getting me my money back

You aren't answering my point. Your argument was that we need the threat of chargebacks to make merchants more likely to ensure customer satisfaction. I told you that other threats like legal action are sufficient to keep the pressure on merchants to remain honest. For example a merchant repeatedly taken to court will eventually be shut down, or maybe fined sufficiently that it will eat his profits so he will be enticed to be more honest.

> Without I am encouraged to trust my system

If customers threaten to go to court or report you to the FTC/BBB I can ensure you you will be encouraged to go investigate too.

> So then you say "Well only use trusted merchants like Amazon!"

I am not asking for change. People already do it. They already use trusted merchants (mostly). This was the central point stated at the beginnig of this thread: "most merchants are honest, most disputes are resolved without chargebacks. Therefore chargebacks aren't really that needed or that important for most transactions." So yeah for the 1% of cases where you think the merchant might be fraudulent use Bitcoin with escrow, or a credit card, or cash-on-delivery, or whatever. For the other 99% a standard non-escrowed Bitcoin transaction is acceptable.

[sanswork]

But you're ignoring the difficulty and worthlessness of these actions. If the company isn't local going to small claims becomes expensive so despite threats almost no one will do it. FTC/BBB does nothing unless there is obvious widespread fraud and how long will a resolution take for you?

>If customers threaten to go to court or report you to the FTC/BBB I can ensure you you will be encouraged to go investigate too.

No you're encouraged to wait until they actually go through the process of taking action then if its cheaper resolve it.

You keep saying most merchants are honest which I agree with but honesty isn't the only reason for charge backs as I mentioned.

[vanzard]

Filing a complaint to the FTC or BBB is no more difficult than filing a credit card dispute. In both cases you merely supply evidence of the fraud.

But I am not claiming a legal action is as likely as a chargeback to make the customer whole. I am claiming a legal action works just as well as a chargeback to put pressure on merchants to keep them honest.

> honesty isn't the only reason for charge backs

What other reasons? Illegal charges after theft of credit card billing information? I would say this is an argument for Bitcoin since using Bitcoin makes impossible for the merchant to steal or lose your billing information :) So what other reasons for a chargeback are you thinking about?

[sanswork]

>Filing a complaint to the FTC or BBB is no more difficult than filing a credit card dispute. In both cases you merely supply evidence of the fraud.

And then what? What happens to get my money back? What evidence do I have of fraud if its just a shipping dispute and their word against mine?

>What other reasons?

I gave you other reasons above and neither were illegal charges. Mistakes, and disruptions in the continuance of the company to name two.

[vanzard]

I repeat again: I agree the customer is less likely to get his money back with an FTC complaint than a chargeback. But FTC complaints still work as an incentive to keep merchants honest because what the FTC does eventually is one or more of the following: initiate lawsuit, shut down the business, seize the merchant's assets (offices, products, money, everything), etc.

> What evidence do I have of fraud if its just a shipping dispute and their word against mine?

The same evidence you would supply to your credit card issuer for a dispute: shipment info, package tracking numbers, pictures of items delivered, customer/merchant email exchanges, etc.

> Mistakes, and disruptions in the continuance of the company

As I said, most merchants are trying to please customers, so most mistakes are resolved without a chargeback. I don't think you will disagree here. I have never had to issue a chargeback, yet I had a few mistakes happen on me and the merchant always resolved them in my favor.

As to "disruptions in the continuance of the company" this is an extremely rare event, even rarer than outright fraud. So I will agree this is a nice case to have chargebacks available, but again as I said for 99.9...% of other purchases Bitcoin's lack of chargebacks is totally acceptable. I don't think you will disagree here either.

[s73v3r]

Yes, but at least I can be made whole from a fraudulent merchant in a timely manner with a chargeback. Not so for any of the other methods you mentioned.