[sanswork]

But you're ignoring the difficulty and worthlessness of these actions. If the company isn't local going to small claims becomes expensive so despite threats almost no one will do it. FTC/BBB does nothing unless there is obvious widespread fraud and how long will a resolution take for you?

>If customers threaten to go to court or report you to the FTC/BBB I can ensure you you will be encouraged to go investigate too.

No you're encouraged to wait until they actually go through the process of taking action then if its cheaper resolve it.

You keep saying most merchants are honest which I agree with but honesty isn't the only reason for charge backs as I mentioned.

[vanzard]

Filing a complaint to the FTC or BBB is no more difficult than filing a credit card dispute. In both cases you merely supply evidence of the fraud.

But I am not claiming a legal action is as likely as a chargeback to make the customer whole. I am claiming a legal action works just as well as a chargeback to put pressure on merchants to keep them honest.

> honesty isn't the only reason for charge backs

What other reasons? Illegal charges after theft of credit card billing information? I would say this is an argument for Bitcoin since using Bitcoin makes impossible for the merchant to steal or lose your billing information :) So what other reasons for a chargeback are you thinking about?

[sanswork]

>Filing a complaint to the FTC or BBB is no more difficult than filing a credit card dispute. In both cases you merely supply evidence of the fraud.

And then what? What happens to get my money back? What evidence do I have of fraud if its just a shipping dispute and their word against mine?

>What other reasons?

I gave you other reasons above and neither were illegal charges. Mistakes, and disruptions in the continuance of the company to name two.

[vanzard]

I repeat again: I agree the customer is less likely to get his money back with an FTC complaint than a chargeback. But FTC complaints still work as an incentive to keep merchants honest because what the FTC does eventually is one or more of the following: initiate lawsuit, shut down the business, seize the merchant's assets (offices, products, money, everything), etc.

> What evidence do I have of fraud if its just a shipping dispute and their word against mine?

The same evidence you would supply to your credit card issuer for a dispute: shipment info, package tracking numbers, pictures of items delivered, customer/merchant email exchanges, etc.

> Mistakes, and disruptions in the continuance of the company

As I said, most merchants are trying to please customers, so most mistakes are resolved without a chargeback. I don't think you will disagree here. I have never had to issue a chargeback, yet I had a few mistakes happen on me and the merchant always resolved them in my favor.

As to "disruptions in the continuance of the company" this is an extremely rare event, even rarer than outright fraud. So I will agree this is a nice case to have chargebacks available, but again as I said for 99.9...% of other purchases Bitcoin's lack of chargebacks is totally acceptable. I don't think you will disagree here either.

[sanswork]

So your solution to the problem is one that likely won't result in the customer getting their money back and involves a lot more work on their part? It also requires that the company screw up repeatedly with many customers(to get the FTC to investigate), and is still operating?

If you are still honestly convinced that is an acceptable replacement for charge backs we will never find agreement here.

>I have never had to issue a chargeback, yet I had a few mistakes happen on me and the merchant always resolved them in my favor.

You dismiss completely the possibility that this is because of the existence of chargebacks? The fact that you have the ability to reverse the charge, cost the company a charge back fee and potentially raise their payment processing rates if they don't help you out satisfactorily? You don't think that has anything to do with the way they act?

Google tiger direct bitcoin refund for some examples of how a company handles these things without that threat. People spending days trying to resolve the issues bouncing between multiple companies. The alternative is calling their credit card company and having the funds available again in a few minutes.

Or look at all the people waiting >1 year past their expected delivery date for miner shipments and in some cases having the company go out of business before they arrive or send them used equipment.

[vanzard]

> likely won't result in the customer getting their money back

Likewise, a good fraction of credit card disputes end up being resolved in favor of the merchant, not the customer.

> involves a lot more work on their part

I already told you submitting an FTC or BBB complaint is no more work than submitting a credit card chargeback.

> It also requires that the company screw up repeatedly

True if you go to the FTC. Not true if you go to small-claims court: it will be investigated even if only 1 screw-up occur. Yes going to small-claims court is more work than filing a credit card dispute, but then if it is not worth your time given the transaction amount, it kind of proves that being refunded isn't THAT important to you. In this case you would complain to the FTC, and write off the small amount lost.

> You dismiss completely the possibility that this is because of the existence of chargebacks?

I acknowledge chargebacks incentivize merchants to act honestly. But I will repeat for the third time: this is not the only thing that incentivize merchants. FTC, BBB, legal actions, etc.

> Google tiger direct bitcoin refund

I did and I found 2 stories, both resolved in favor of the customer:

- "Edit: The situation is resolved" from http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wesnv/beware_of_ti...

- "He personally verified my address again for the shipment as well as a "care package"" from http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wi95l/another_tige...

This proves my point that most merchants act honestly and that most disputes get resolved without chargebacks :)

> having the funds available again in a few minutes

No. When credit card issuers refund you instantly, it is always a TEMPORARY refund (check the fine print of your credit card agreement) - you still need to submit a full package usually within 60 days with evidence of the dispute (tracking numbers, product descriptions, pictures of what was received, etc) for the credit card issuer to investigate and either make the refund permanent, or resolve in favor of the merchant. That's why I keep explaining t you that submitting this evidence of the dispute is similar in complexity to submitting a complaint to the FTC as they ask the same things a credit card issuer would ask.

Out of curiosity: how many credit card disputes have you ever filed? What proportion were resolved in your favor, and in the merchant's favor?

[sanswork]

>Likewise, a good fraction of credit card disputes end up being resolved in favor of the merchant, not the customer.

Do you have any evidence of this?

>I already told you submitting an FTC or BBB complaint is no more work than submitting a credit card chargeback.

But then right after you said I would need to compile all the evidence to do so. So what is it? No more work(and I just have to fill in a form) or more work?

Also you realize the BBB is a private company that has no teeth right?

>True if you go to the FTC. Not true if you go to small-claims court:

I see bitcoin people recommend small claims court all the time. It works great when the merchant it local. It doesn't work so well when the merchant isn't since you have to file in their county. So add on travel time, missed work, etc to travel to where ever they are(assuming they are in your country) and it becomes a lot less likely someone is going to go this route.

>I did and I found 2 stories, both resolved in favor of the customer:

Both of which involved around a week of hassle just to get their product. And if they weren't newly accepted and watched by the bitcoin community at that time what would the result have been? Also if you'd looked a few results down on google you'd have also found this story https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/coinbase-extreme-bitcoin-tra...

This was a big company and if you read the correspondences they were more than happy to ignore the people until a 3rd party stepped in. This works great on rare occasions but bitpay isn't going to be able to afford to police transactions with their fees.

I'll also note you skipped over the miner disputes in your response.

You admitted already you have never filed a dispute yet you seem to talk with authority about the process? I've filed 2 disputes against merchants both found in my favour neither required submitting evidence and 1 dispute due to fraud that required me to submit a signed letter confirming I didn't make the charges.