Ask HN: Is it too late to do a startup after 35?

[gatsbysong]

I've been in a corporate for many years after grad school. Climbing endless corporate ladder. I want to feel the excitement of a start-up. Should I quit my job and do my own gig full time? Or is this age already too old to compete with the 20s?

[USNetizen]

You are absolutely not too old. Actually, contrary to the Silicon Valley stereotype, most startup founders are between their late 30's and early 40's - where they have the perfect mix of remaining youthful drive and critical industry experience (it is also, coincidentally, the age range where fluid intelligence of youth and crystallized intelligence of wisdom intersect and balance out). The fastest growing startups are actually far more likely to be led by people over the age of 50 than under the age of 30.

Don't listen to the Silicon Valley echo chamber - the rest of the country thrives on stable businesses, which are most likely to be led by older founders. Not only can you compete with those 20-somethings, but you can out-maneuver them using the experience you've earned in other environments. Younger founders may have to put in 100 hours a week and make dozens of costly mistakes that you, because of your corporate background, can potentially foresee and avoid altogether.

Reference: http://business.time.com/2013/03/14/ask-the-expert-the-best-...

[seanmcdirmid]

If you have a family, obligations, the amount of risk you can take on might be more limited. It's ok taking equity in leui of a decent salary in your 20's when single, but this is much harder when life goals change after having a kid.

[USNetizen]

Well, that is another stereotype. When you're older and have held more high-paying jobs, you also tend to have savings, assets, a better credit history and other funds to cushion the blow. Plus, with a spouse, you have economies of scale potentially so they can work while you lead a startup with little or no pay.

I would guarantee if you took a survey, that the average founder actually falls somewhere around 38-45 years old, with one to two kids, a mortgage and everything else. Yet, the risk is substantially lower because they can leverage up to 20 years of earned experience (and contacts) in an industry (or multiple).

If you don't believe me, just ask the guys that started Intel, who were in their 40's with families. They even did it in a time when technology startups were virtually unheard of.

[seanmcdirmid]

I was referring to working for a startup than founding one. I think you are right about founding, that many founders will be older necessarily. And in that case, you at least have controls of the risks and are chasing your vision, not someone else's. But working for a startup at 40 seems problematic, since you aren't really taking risks as an entrepreneur.

[USNetizen]

I don't believe the original post was about working at a startup, it was more regarding founding one. Hence my answers to that effect.

I don't see the difference though. Netscape was co-founded by a 20-something Marc Andreessen, but run day-to-day by a couple 40-and-50-somethings in the early days, not including the developers, many of which were well into their 30's.

Like I said, the 20-something startup kid - either worker or founder - is a stereotype and not accurate. I can keep coming up with more examples if you want. There are dozens of them for every one 20-something wunderkind example.

Heck, looking back now that I'm in my 30's, I marvel at the ignorance I had in my 20's that could have easily led me to ruining a startup. Experience is simply irreplaceable and more valuable than youth in business, regardless of what you've been told.

Now that I'm a little older, I have a successful company which I could simply not have achieved without millions of dollars in investment at a younger age. That investment would have all gone to keeping me afloat while I made mistakes due to the naivete of my 20's. Contrarily, working in industry for a little while first, I learned from other successful companies and leveraged the good things while jettisoning the bad things I saw.

[vidarh]

There was a period after my son was born where I definitively wouldn't have tried another startup, but that too changes quickly (he's 6 now)

And while, yes, I can't gamble my income as I could before, I've never gone more than 1 month without income despite having been through more than half a dozen startups, and I've never had to trade a decent salary to get equity other than at my first startup (at 19; we were all clueless of business and hopelessly underfunded - we started an ISP with about $50k and lived on our student loans for the first year).

Maybe I've just been lucky, but fear of losing my salary just does not factor in to me. Nor does the idea of having to sacrifice salary. When joining my last startup, I took 7.5% in options coupled with a salary offer 20% above my previous job, with the only sacrifice being that I put in evenings and some weekend work for "free" for a few months before our A round closed.

Incidentally the founders of the last startup I mentioned above were both older, one of them had three young children, and a wife who worked part time on another startup.

Many at my age have reached the level of financial stability where setting aside enough savings to be secure for a year or two of uncertain income is easy enough to even make bootstrapping less stressful if I were to opt for that.

The biggest change for me is that my priorities have changed. I'm not so interested in chasing after the billion dollar exit, as I've come to realise how little money matters to my happiness, and that will change how/when/what I do next time I start a company or join another startup.

[rgrieselhuber]

This largely depends on if your spouse prefers security and predictability over risk and adventure, as well as your ability to persuade them towards the latter.

[rayiner]

Single people have to feed and house themselves--married people can often lean on their spouse. My former boss started the company in his late 30's, after working in industry and having three kids. His wife paid the bills, allowing him to bootstrap without having to seek outside investment.

[cthulhuology]

No age is too old. I co-founded a startup last year, successfully raised a 8 figure series A, and am the youngest of founders by more than a decade, and I'm over 35.

The difference between now (startup #4 for me) and when I was in my 20s, is now I waste a lot less time and energy on things that don't matter.

My advice is start consulting on something you know just slightly better than the next guy. You can often jumpstart a product development plan by helping a large company define a product they need. Then make that if more than one company really needs it :)

[fiatmoney]

"Doing a startup" is a middling to bad idea (particularly if you mean "working for below-market wages & illiquid impossible-to-value options at a hip VC funded consumer web foosball emporium", as opposed to actually founding).

"Starting a company" on the other hand is an excellent idea, if you think you've found a niche where you can make it work.

Your remarks about wanting to "feel the excitement" and "compete with the 20s" though make me think you might want to contemplate what you're trying to get out of it. If it's possibly-positive-value consumption (similar to the idea of starting a clothing boutique or coffeeshop) that's a different decision calculus than if it's an investment of time & some money that's intended to pay off with a given return in a given timeframe.

Some people spend money climbing mountains; some people found guide companies so they can spend more time climbing mountains; some people found sporting goods stores because they've noticed the margins are pretty high and more people seem to be climbing mountains lately. There's a key difference between #2 & #3.

[thisrod]

And #2 never works: people who try that soon find that they're too worn out to climb anything fun, they're stuck in the mountains, and they don't like being there any more.

[Mz]

From: http://v25media.s3.amazonaws.com/edw519_mod.pdf

  127. It’s Never Too Late
  Teen years - flipped burgers & partied
  Age 21 - graduated college, flipped burgers, & partied
  Age 24 - touched my first computer
  Age 25 - wrote my first program
  Age 27 - touched my first PC
  Age 31 - wrote my first low level code
  Age 32 - started my first business
  Age 39 - started my second business
  Age 41 - accessed the internet for the first time
  Age 44 - wrote my first browser-based app
  Age 51 - found Hacker News
  Now - having more fun than ever

  It’s never too late, you’re never too old, and it’s not whether the glass is half full or half empty.

  It’s about getting up off your butt and filling the glass the rest of the way.

If you spend any time around here, you might be passingly familiar with the author (as he is currently #5 on the leader board):

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=edw519

[excitom]

As someone who has spent almost 40 years in high tech, and who has founded 3 companies after 30 (one after 40), I just don't buy the B.S. that you've over the hill after your 20's. I think any V.C. that buys that hype is going to miss out on enormous opportunities.

Part of the thinking is that once you marry and have a family, then 100 hour work weeks are out. Well, setting aside the discussion of quantity v. quality of work, now that my kids are out of school and out of the nest I'm free to work the long hours again, but this time around I have a wealth of experience and wisdom to bring to the table as well as the hours.

[codingdave]

VCs don't buy that hype. They just know that young founders are more likely to be convinced that VCs are mentors and follow their guidance easier than guys in their 40s. The VCs will own more of the company, and have more board seats, and have more influence, all for less output of cash.

[Disruptive_Dave]

I can also say, as a 35yo co-founder who works with a bunch of 20-somethings, I am WAY more focused and productive than them. Not their fault, this came with time in stress-filled work environments and the natural maturing of my personal life. I can do in 8 hours what they do in 12, on a regular basis.

[joeblau]

  > In fact, research shows that the median age of U.S.-born tech company founders
  > is 39, and there are twice as many entrepreneurs older than 50 than there are 
  > younger that age 25.

http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/242851

[stevenkovar]

Don't quit your job. There's no reason to unless your real motivation is to feel like you're being an entrepreneur. In which case, I urge you to reconsider.

Create a project and work on it in your spare time. Get people using it early, and learn as much from them as possible. When an aspect of your project takes more time than you have spare, find someone to help with that task. Ideally, charge money; and once you have 10-20 customers, double your price and get 10-20 more. Keep doubling your price until a healthy amount of customers start citing price as the deciding factor—you've found a value for your product that serves both you and your customers.

At some point, you'll be making enough to live and save at least $1,000/mo—that's when you quit and focus on your project full-time; if you want to go the funding route, you have that freedom still.

[GnarfGnarf]

No. I founded a software company when I was 46, and it's still going strong twenty years later. The most fun I've ever had.

[api]

No, nor at 45, 55, or 65.

The biggest advantages early-twenty-somethings have over later age groups is a higher risk tolerance and a lack of obligations getting in the way of putting in unlimited time at the office.

The latter is a little dubious, since the data shows that productivity tends to fall after about 40 hours of work a week and to drop off a cliff after 50. Sometimes you gotta crunch, but if you're crunching all the time something is wrong. I consider that a sign of poor planning or "work hygiene."

The former does matter, but it can be overcome by compensating with better planning and by leveraging superior experience. You can compensate for lower risk tolerance by working to de-risk the venture as early as possible as much as you can.

[solve]

YC interviewers say yes. Some have directly told me that they use this equation when judging applications:

impressiveness = achievements / age

Now that YC has tried to tackle the race and gender concerns, I really hope that ageism is next. They can start by switching the age application question to just an "over 18?" checkbox.

[vidarh]

As someone who is 39, why is "impressiveness = achievements / age" a problem in your eyes?

Looking back at my own life, pretty much all my worthwhile achievements has come after 20, and according to that formula I'd come out very favourable against 20-25 years olds like myself.

That formula is pretty much just saying that they expect people to have more achievements the older they are, which does not seem unreasonable to me.

[solve]

No one has ever said "that's incredible for a 40 year old".

Only the young get benefit from this equation. I would bet that your achievements would not be considered great by someone who uses this equation, no matter how great they are.

The somewhat misquoted phrase that's attributed to the Alibaba CEO describes the spirit of people who use this type of thinking better than my equation will:

"If you're not rich at 35, you deserve it!"

[vidarh]

No one says "that's incredible for a 40 year old" because a 40 year old is expected to have had time enough that we don't need the qualifier of age.

In part because the world is full of examples of 40 year olds being successful, but despite the Silicon Valley bias, impressive 20-year olds or 25-year olds (or even 30-year olds) with big achievements are extreme outliers.

Even in the startup world.

[Disruptive_Dave]

SHIT NO!!! I'm 35, live in NYC, and one year into my first real startup that I co-founded. A few insights from my experience, as well as some challenges and advantages: 1) Everyone is younger than me and it's mostly humorous and enjoyable (I play much younger than typical 35yo's, tho). 2) I spent 10 years running a partnership marketing agency and I was lucky that I could easily translate my skills/experience/contacts to the startup world (mostly in biz dev). 3) There is a strong need for people with real-world business, people management, and corporate relations experience in startupland. You can probably run a conference call much better than these damn whippersnapper programmers. 4) The only real disadvantage associated with being 35yo in startups is risk mitigation. If you have kids and a mortgage, it's gonna be much harder to move fast and jump on opportunities. I am mostly unencumbered and that's crucial right now (actually moving for 3 months soon, as we got into an accelerator). 5) I'll never forget when a startup colleague (23yo developer) expressed bewilderment when I called him (on the telephone!) to talk about some business matter. He promptly explained that his generation usually does this stuff over gchat. I laughed. He laughed. 6) I've been thinking about this a lot lately; we only have one short life to live on this earth and it friggin flies by, so why not reinvent yourself a few times, professionally and personally? Assuming you're smart enough not to risk your/your family's future well being, go for it.

[Disruptive_Dave]

I should add: 7) Coming from the corporate/agency world, you'll be floored by the lack of basic business sense and planning found in the average early stage startup. Perhaps I was naive, but the severity of that mindset ("let's just make something flashy and get a ton of users and everything else will figure itself out!") surprised me at first.

[david_shaw]

I'm not a founder, but I don't believe it's (ever) too late, as long as you have the passion and drive to get it done.

My suggestion would be to stop thinking about "startup founders" as 20-something college-dropouts that we so easily envision, and instead remember that most of the world's successful companies (not startups) are run by older, more experienced CEOs. You might not pull as many ridiculous redbull-fueled all-nighters (or maybe you will), but you've also seen a lot more in the world -- especially in business.

You ask if you're "too old to compete with the 20s" -- I have little doubt that they wonder if they're too young to compete with more experienced businesspeople.

If you want to build a startup, do it.

[thalesmello]

Nope. The founder of http://magnetis.com.br spent most of his life working in a bank and in a fund. Money wasn't a problem, but he was unhappy. He's got a management background, and never programmed until his late thirties. He then learned Ruby, found a few partners and created this app to track the performance of investment funds. During my internship in the company, he took part as CEO and developer. So, if you have enough dedication, you can completely change your life regardless of age.

[mainetti]

As some already mentioned, it's never too late. I'll add a little bit from my experience, of having started a technology company in my 20s and then, later, starting two others after my 40s, all of them active until now. The two most important things I felt different were: time and energy. I explain. The time I had to work for my startup when in my 20s was huge, almost any time I wanted, and everyday. And that's what I did. I worked everyday, all the time. When you love the company you founded, that's what you want to do. But now, after my 40s, life changed. Married, children, and a lot of obligations and responsabilities. I definitely don't have the time I had in my 20s to dedicate to the startup. And yes, you need to dedicate time! Regarding the energy, I mean the energy related to health, physical capacity, intellectual concentration and ability to handle stress. These are all different 20 years down the road. And I amazed now, to see and feel the amount of energy one needs to dedicate to the startup. I had forgotten this. I'm not commenting all other aspects related to loving what you want to do, entrepreneurship capacity and persistence because I'm taking these as given. So, in short, if you have the _time_ and the _energy_, go ahead do your startup. Otherwise, go do something else.

[JamesDLevine]

Over at 500 Startups we see a substantial number of founders and founding members who are in their 30s and 40s, and even some in their 50s and beyond.

This topic resurfaces every so often. Google will produce various articles and studies on the topic. Here's a study from HBR using Crunchbase API, LinkedIn, WSJ-

https://hbr.org/2014/04/how-old-are-silicon-valleys-top-foun...

[gatsbysong]

interesting statistics.

[kabdib]

About 15 years ago I met a 65 year old (a founder of Adobe) who was considering "taking another run at the fence."

The term "taking another run at the fence" refers to flocks of turkeys, who are often crushed against short fences when the flock panics. They are stupid birds and don't know that they are able to fly above the fence.

For me, the considerations are:

- Time away from family

- Likelihood that the compensation will ultimately be crap

I can compensate for the long hours by taking care of myself, and by working smart.

[gmays]

Certainly not. In fact during the Female Founders Conference today Jessica mentioned that there's someone in the current batch who's in their late 60's.

Assuming you don't squander your early years starting older has some advantages. When you're older you've likely built some domain expertise, have a better idea of what you want from life, and can support yourself better.

For example, I started in my late 20's. By that time I'd saved a lot of money, built steady passive income, was married (wife's career keeps her busy), and didn't have any kids. Since most other areas of my life were taken care (especially financial) of I could pour myself into my startup without worrying about raising money or runway.

That said, remember that wanting to feel "the excitement of a start-up" is the wrong reason to join or start one. Before quitting your job I'd highly recommend just starting a side project and do it for at least 6 months before making any major decisions. It's very unglamorous and odds are you won't even launch a product, which is fine. Better to learn that now than after you quit your job because 35 isn't too old to start a startup but it is too old to be unemployed.

[BatFastard]

If you have the vision and the guts to make it happen you can do it at any age. BUT, think about your life situation, how adverse to risk are you? Can you put in long hours if needed with out FAMILY suffering? Mid life is a often a lot about family. I am getting close to sending my last child off to college. When I get there I am open for anything. But I know many of my kids friends better then their mother or father does. They talk to me about their problems, don't miss out on your children(s) life... No amount of money can make up for it.

[peggyli]

Definitely check out the answers to the Quora question "What do people in Silicon Valley plan to do once they are over 35?"

https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-in-Silicon-Valley-plan-...

Lots of great examples of entrepreneurs who founded successful companies after turning 35, and includes answers from Craig Newmark (Craigslist), Reed Hastings (Netflix), Jimmy Wales (Wikipedia, Wikia), and more.

[wooyi]

The biggest challenge I find with ex-corporate mid 30s folks is their inability to reduce their personal burn and lifestyle in order to survive the startup process to succeed. The question you're asking is the wrong one. It's not how old you are. The question is, can you do without your pay, sustain your family (if you have one) and the mental stress around that, for 18-24 months before your startup becomes profitable (or you raise money).

Usually from mid 30s people, the answer is hell, no.

[USNetizen]

Actually, the answer is most commonly yes, and more so than someone in their 20's that is burdened with student debt and no experience or industry contacts. Mid-30's people have savings, assets, credit history and other funds. Plus, they potentially have a spouse to cover expenses while the startup grows. That is the best kind of investment in terms of supporting a new business.

The stats don't lie - the average founder is late 30's to early 40's. The 20-something wunderkind is a Silicon Valley thing, not reality for the rest of the country's businesses.

[wooyi]

My answer was based on anecdotal evidence. Yes, having a supportive a spouse is key and a win for a mid 30s professional. I started my first business in my mid 30s so my peers are in this group.

From that perspective, the average founder is definitely not late 30s to early 40s. Maybe I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd... :-)

[vidarh]

First of all, unless you are a co-founder of a bootstrapped startup, you should ask yourself some very hard questions if you are asked to do without pay or take a pay cut unless your pay is extremely high to begin with.

Having done half a dozen plus startups, I've had to deal with low pay once, and that was a startup I did at 19, four of us co-founded an ISP and got about $50k funding from a guy almost as clueless as we were. Since then I've been able to demand, and get, market rate salaries on top of options or outright shares past initial periods of working on the project evenings etc. The startups I've been part of have in fact been more stable when it comes to paying on time.

There are cases where taking salary cuts are ok and justified to make a startup work, but there better be a lot of equity in there.

As for being able to reduce burn, I spend about 50% of my after tax income normally. Less at the moment due to some consulting. This is with a child and a mortgage. While i's true I spend more than I did at 20 (I'm 39 now), inflation adjusted the difference is small, and my income also allows me to build up a buffer which means I'm far better able to deal with loss of income today than I was then. It also means that I can live off 4-5 days of consulting a month in a crisis.

While I'm sure you're right for a lot of people, there are plenty of us for whom our 30's or 40's have brought a huge increase in financial flexibility.

[brandonlipman]

No way. If anything you may be at an a significant advantage. Theirs an awesome book by Noam Wasserman "Founders Dilemmas" which puts data behind all factors of founderhood. Your experience could give you a great base of knowledge to work from.

I have been told by some that corporate experience allows you to develop good working relationships that can be used when finding co-founders as well as getting customers.

[chuhnk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Koum

Jan Koum started WhatsApp when he was 33. Now I'm not saying you are the next Jan Koum but I do believe it's never too late to work on something you're passionate about.

Sometimes joining an early stage startup can let you be part of that exhilarating experience so that's one idea.

[gatsbysong]

Thanks!

[lscore720]

Of course you're not too old! I highly recommend taking a vacation or simply stepping outside of your bubble first - this'll be a big part of determining product/market fit if you're trying to make something viable for the masses. At your age, it's important to have the wisdom & experience to separate fact from fiction in start-up success stories.

[eli]

I don't even get the question. Why would a 20 year old be inherently better at running a business than a 40 year old?

[fsk]

If you already have a stable job, find something you can do on the side for 5-10 hours a week. Wait until it seems like it's doing well to quit your regular job.

Also, it's better to bootstrap with savings than raise VC at the beginning.

[noso]

you should read following:

The Ray Kroc Story

“If I had a brick for every time I’ve repeated the phrase Quality, Service, Cleanliness and Value, I think I’d probably be able to bridge the Atlantic Ocean with them.” —Ray Kroc

How do you create a restaurant business and become an overnight success at the age of 52? As Ray Kroc said, “I was an overnight success alright, but 30 years is a long, long night.”

http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/our_story/our_history/the_ray...

You are never too old to dream! Jut work hard and you will get to where you want to be.

[marcusestes]

I bet you already know if you feel able to compete with people in their 20s. If the question is, will other people, for instance, investors, think that you're too old?

Two words: fuck 'em.

Signed, a 35-year old CEO.

[USNetizen]

Age of founder(s) may exclude some startups from funding in California, but elsewhere the older a founder the more competent they are usually rated. Even then, more traditional funding sources, like banks, are more likely to lend or invest in older founders because of their experience and potential assets.

[gatsbysong]

really encouraging! thanks, man.

[vowelless]

I'm 25 and I'm aiming to start my first startup when I'm 35!

In the mean time, I want to have some financial security, sort out immigration to the US, etc.

[rabbyte]

Don't be distracted by the noise of the world. Focus on what matters to you and be fearless.

[benologist]

In what way would you be competing with these 20 year olds?

[MrBassam]

It is better than 36

[drawkbox]

Not at all, developers usually don't really have the scope to put out great products before then < 10 years in. Some do but it is because of support networks and coding since a really early age. As an example Zuckerberg had funding and support his entire life so he was decades ahead at 20.

It takes a good 10 years of coding before you can make products from design to development to maintenance and live mode, and some good working time to understand problems that need solving.

You are actually in the prime age for entrepreneurship. Go get it.

Paul Graham and Robert Morris started Viaweb when they were 31/30 years old and sold it after a couple of years.

VCs do want younger because it is better terms/leverage (http://business.time.com/2013/03/14/ask-the-expert-the-best-...) but if you have a good company/product that is investable you will get investment, or if you make a product people want, people will want it if you get it in front of them. I think the bias toward funding only young is also probably harming products differentiation.

However you can understand why VCs go younger, mainly because success of those kids is like an emerging underground band that might sell out stadiums one day. They want in earlier than other VCs or before anything of value has been created so it is under their umbrella. VCs are hipsters in that they are trying to find value before others see it.

VCs main goal is to pan for Zuckerbergs like gold upstream from the blue ocean well before the red ocean, because in 5-10 years time they might be their 1 in 10 successes needed. It is a risk they are willing to take to get potential big companies very early.

But you can build a company that makes you a success where you can create your own freedom at any age, you might do it so well you don't need investment, or it may make your company more robust and market tested because you have to bootstrap instead of seeking investment.

Great people with great products find a way.

Some links on ages of entrepreneurs:

http://www.quora.com/What-successful-Internet-entrepreneurs-...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/krisztinaholly/2014/01/15/why-gr...

http://techcrunch.com/2011/05/28/peak-age-entrepreneurship/

https://hbr.org/2014/04/how-old-are-silicon-valleys-top-foun...

http://venturebeat.com/2014/10/31/why-middle-aged-entreprene...

https://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/advisor/older-entrepreneurs-...

[sebringj]

only if you believe it is.