[jack-r-abbit]

There is a lot of talk about how people who get tips generally get a very low wage to start and if they don't get good tips they make a lot less.

The federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour (effective July 24, 2009).[1] Furthermore, the federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips. If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any pay period, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate.[2]

So while it may be true that servers might get a base pay of something stupid like $2.13, they are guaranteed that they will make at least the federal minimum wage (which still sucks but that is a different topic). And... many states go above and beyond what the federal government requires[3]. I'm getting a little tired of the whole "but they live off tips" rhetoric. Tip what you want and don't let society pressure you into tipping more than you desire. For me, since sales tax is hovering in the 9% level where I am, I usually just double that and adjust accordingly (based on service quality, etc). That also makes it easy to not tip based on the bill+tax amount that they give you on the "sub total" line.

[1] http://www.dol.gov/whd/minimumwage.htm [2] http://www.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm [3] http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

[madeofpalk]

> guaranteed that they will make at least the federal minimum wage

Guaranteed legally, and guaranteed in reality are two different things. If I pay someone to drive me somewhere, it's legally guaranteed that they're licensed driver by the government by the appropriate regulator. But in reality, UberX.

I would like to know how often employee's end up following this up with their employer, and how often the employer makes up their wage.

[parennoob]

This. I come from a culture where tipping implies "reward for good service". But in the US, I always feel that if I tip less than the expected 20%, practically I may be cutting into someone's wages. If they demand the difference, they may end up getting fired by their boss.

Does anyone know if these workers are that helpless in practice? Or can they make a single call and get the restaurant owner in trouble if he/she doesn't make up their wages to the minimum? (As an H1B employee, I know well that the theoretical extent of what you can do and the practical extent are sometimes far apart.)

Interestingly, I've seen that this perceived "power/responsibility to ruin someone's job" makes it so that as an outsider, I tip more than the average. I've seen American friends tip 10% when I was tipping 20% for 'average, not great' service.

[jmccree]

It's really not that most restaurants wouldn't make up the wages to the minimum. The minimum wage in most US states is not for most people would call a "living wage, it's around $15k/yr. It's not uncommon in a major city for waiters to be able to pull in $30-60k/year. The thing is that in many place tips are paid out in cash at the end of their shift, so if you don't tip you're literally taking money out of their pocket for that day.

Many paycheck I've seen from most wait staff is less than $20 for two weeks. The employer is required to withhold taxes based on the hours worked and tips reported, so the whole paycheck basically goes to taxes.

As for cases where someone doesn't make enough tips to hit minimum wage, in many places not making enough tips is a sign that the person isn't doing a good enough job. So they won't be fired for "asking for minimum wage", but because "their performance was unsatisfactory".

So yes, in practice most wait staff do live off their tips. Depending on the locale an extra $10 or $100 in tips could be the difference in what their kid eats that night or whether they can make their car payment tomorrow.

(Personal story time: I will always remember helping my mom wait tables at a local diner when I was young and someone tipped $10 on a ~$10 meal and instead of eating hamburger helper that night we got to go out an eat at Long John Silver's.)

[vosper]

Except that you're not "literally taking money out of their pocket for that day" - that would imply that the money was rightfully theirs, and that you've essentially stolen it from them by not tipping. That's not how tipping works - it's the customers money, given at their discretion. There's a strong sense of obligation felt by most people, but it is ultimately optional.

[nucleardog]

Most places require the wait staff to tip out the kitchen a percent of their sales at the end of the shift to the tune of 2-5%.

If you don't tip then you are actually actually taking money out of their pocket since they're now going to have to cover your 2-5% tip to the kitchen out of their own, rightfully earned, money.

[jack-r-abbit]

That is illegal. Google it. A group of tipped employees (ie. servers and bartenders) may pool tips. But it is illegal to force them to include non-tipped employees (ie cooks, dishwashers, etc) in the pool. Servers may tip the cooks, etc themselves if they want. But they can't be required to.

[johngalt]

They have to report their tips for tax purposes. If the reported wages don't add up to minimum, then the restaurant can get in trouble from a whole host of government agencies. Even if the employee does nothing, the IRS will come calling assuming that tips are being under-reported.

[pmoriarty]

It's even worse in Europe, where a "mandatory tip" is already included in your bill by the time you get it. The service in Europe tends to be of a much lower quality than in the US as well.

In general, the US is a consumer paradise compared to Europe. In the US, it's better to be a consumer than an employee. In Europe it's the opposite.

[ma2rten]

It's even worse in Europe, where a "mandatory tip" is already included in your bill by the time you get it.

There is no "mandatory tip" in Europe. It's actually very simple: you pay for a service, the business pays it's employees. How much the employees get payed is not your concern as a customer. You can tip if you received excellent service, but that is totally optional as it should be.

In general, the US is a consumer paradise compared to Europe.

That is not true. US is business friendly. Europe is consumer and employee friendly. Just some examples: VAT is included in the price, all electronics include 2 year warranty, if you pay CRV you can return the bottle at the shop, shops must except returns, ...

[dantheman]

Europe is not consumer friendly at all.

Service is terrible, many places only accept cash, more accept debit cards, most don't accept credit cards.

Store hours are terrible.

[59nadir]

Sweden runs almost exclusively on plastic and technology, so much so that even a lot of older people don't even get physical bills anymore.

To say "Europe is..." about anything is a pretty broad statement. Your one or two trips to a couple of european countries probably doesn't qualify you to make this statement.

It's true about some countries in Europe. Bulgaria, for example, generally has bad service and you're lucky if you can use card to pay for everything you buy during a day. This is not representative of even a majority of Europe, though.

[elbear]

Where in Europe have you been? The diversity between countries is big and even in the same country you encounter differences.

[dalore]

Perhaps in the country. Europe is a big place. Places I go in Paris, Stockholm, London, Amsterdam usually accept cards.

[lucaspiller]

> It's even worse in Europe, where a "mandatory tip" is already included in your bill by the time you get it.

Recently a lot of restaurants in London have started adding this, however the "service charge" is completely optional (UK advertising laws state that the advertised price, in the menu, should include all fees and taxes). I think they've only done this as European tourists are used to it, so they can get more £££.

[zhte415]

Service charge included in the bill, often 10-15%, has been standard for decades, though some restaurants decline to add it, as it is optional. You can refuse to pay it when included in the bill.

Tipping in the UK is not expected, nor is it expected that visitors from Europe will tip, unless they're tricked into expecting tipping is expected. It is appreciated, but not expected.

This is London, other parts of the UK may vary.

[eterm]

This has been standard practice in the UK for a while now, but it's completely legal to cross through the service charge and tip cash (or not at all).

[59nadir]

> In general, the US is a consumer paradise compared to Europe. In the US, it's better to be a consumer than an employee. In Europe it's the opposite.

Yeah, that's why every time there is a TnC/EULA dispute european courts are the ones to throw out garbage conditions stated in EULAs and US courts are the ones who uphold them.

Sweden has a very consumer-centric mindset, to the point where I haven't in 26 years of living there ever felt like I was 'being fucked'. Even in this thread I see stuff in the US about being charged for using a card to pay. That's illegal in Sweden.

As an even better example, you have a 3 year right to return a product if it breaks, which overrides any signed contract or anything you might agree with in terms of guarantee with a store. It makes things like Applecare (that you apparently badly need in the US) useless, because everyone already has "Applecare for everything" as a consumer right.

[dalore]

That's why it's all gone to pot. You don't realise that employees are consumers. You give them more money they spend more.

[acjohnson55]

I'm all for changing the absurd system where tipping is practically required for one where a reasonable wage is paid and pre-factored into the cost of the service. But if we all just stopped tipping suddenly, it's the most vulnerable people who bear the brunt until the system adjusts. I think that's pretty morally suspect.

[mc32]

A small sprinkle of restaurants[1] have begun trying an alternative where tips are disallowed but include some type of additional charge on your bill and in return the staff get paid a higher wage. According to another article this has resulted in better service from the staff --and that would seem to be opposite of what you might get from continental servers (who customarily don't get tips), so it bears watching.

[1]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/more-restaurants-adopting-no-tip...

PS. The strata of restaurant trying this approach might skew results, so, not sure what results one might get in a broad spectrum of restaurants.

[pmoriarty]

You don't have to wait for the results to come in. Just go to Europe, where this has been standard practice for decades if not longer.

For what it's worth, in my own personal experience and that of others I've talked with, the service in Europe is markedly worse than what you usually get in the US. But anecdotes like mine are too little to go on. I'd be interested to hear if there's been any cross-cultural research on the subject.

[monksy]

Are you kidding me? I've had only a handful of bad service experiences in Europe compared to the numerous great ones.

The Europeans tend not to keep coming back to your table to ask how you're doing, or if something is wrong. If there is something wrong with the meal they'll come because they're watching/paying attention.

[rhino369]

Most people want a waiter to come by because its rude to wave a waiter over.

European service sucks.

[stevekemp]

No, most people probably want to eat their meal in peace and quiet.

They don't need a waiter coming over every five minutes - specifically so that you'll remember that and equate it with "attentiveness" and "great service" when it comes to time to tip.

[DanBC]

Personally I loathe the intrusive cloying fake-friendliness of US waiters. I've had a few pretty poor[1] experiences despite not eating out that often in the US.

I have eaten out in the UK considerably more often and had fewer poor experiences.

maybe it's just a cultural thing?

[jamespo]

It's not rude at all to catch their eye, or are you using the finger clicking method?

[mc32]

I thought that too, buut then I thought about Japan --and there they get paid near minimum wage (comparable to US minimum wage) but also have no tipping policy (or rather culture) and yet service tends to be great. So I think culture has a significant impact --and I wonder where US staff might fall; towards European apathy or Japanese pride in vocation.

[pmoriarty]

If they take pride in their work that might make me feel better, or it might make them feel better. But that alone is not going to put bread on their table.

[themartorana]

Many changes that end up being pretty good hurt the most vulnerable in the short term. The biggest example of this is the Industrial Revolution.

It's tough to say whether you apply moral leanings towards no disruption at all vs. "in the long term" benefits to everyone, including the most vulnerable among us.

I'm not going to offer an answer, because I'm not sure I have one. I don't want anyone to suffer, but I want everyone to be better off in the end.

Cabbies seem like they're in the heart of every controversy these days - from medallions losing huge amounts of value to wage/tip adjustments.

In the end, do we all benefit?

[goatforce5]

There's a cafe here in Toronto that adjoins a community centre that runs social programs, etc., and they have a tip jar next to the register. There's a sign that says something like "Our staff a paid a fair living wage. Any donations for the community centre are welcomed." or something.

[konstruktor]

So it is okay to deprive generations of future servers of a guaranteed livable wage, just because the current one will be affected temporarily?

[acjohnson55]

That's not the only alternative. And if your answer personally is not to tip, I think you have to ask yourself whether you're not tipping has made an impact on the policy, is is your action just hurting the poor sap who happened to serve you with no connection to a broader movement to spark change?

[DanBC]

Is minimum wage a living wage?

$7.25 * 44 hours per week * 51 weeks per year is still only 15,950 US$

That's gross, not net.

I'm not convinced that people would pay extra even if they didn't have to tip to a company that paid a living wage but charged more.

[comrh]

> I'm not convinced that people would pay extra even if they didn't have to tip to a company that paid a living wage but charged more.

Probably could be a really interesting research topic but Uber comes to mind as part of the reason I loved it at the beginning was the lack of tipping.

[sukilot]

It's not about the living wage, it's about the audacity of paying a bit too much to be chauffeured around the city.

[lifeformed]

They do "live off tips" though. They take the job with the expectation of making more than minimum wage.

[ori_b]

> There is a lot of talk about how people who get tips generally get a very low wage to start and if they don't get good tips they make a lot less.

Minimum wage is a very low wage to start. I don't know any taxi drivers, but most waiters I know expect significantly more than minimum wage.

[megablast]

The problem is that it creates a system that is easy to abuse, by the employer.

[prawn]

And in a small business (restaurants and other service providers), that will happen either intentionally or through time pressure, inexperience, etc. I tend not to like systems that rely on something like this in theory rather than operate from a stronger structure.

[mrgriscom]

The problem is that taxi drivers don't really get paid wages at all. Most of them are "independent contractors" that rent the taxi/medallion from someone for the duration of their shift. If they don't make enough to cover that cost, they lose money. To me that is the most messed up part of this entire system -- that the wealth created by the enforced scarcity of taxi medallions accrues to a small owning class that shoulders none of the risk.

[mikeash]

The fact that servers are guaranteed minimum wage does not change "they live off tips" one bit. $7.25 isn't enough to reasonably live on. Like it or not, you're paying their rent with your tips. That doesn't mean you're obligated, but it does mean you have a strong influence over their financial well-being, even with minimum wage guarantees.

[jack-r-abbit]

I did acknowledge that the minimum wage sucks. But it sucks the same for all minimum wage jobs... the ones that don't even have the chance at getting tips. How much it costs to live is a much broader topic than this and should include all jobs that get low wages. I think tips fall into the same rough category as bonuses and commissions. People who get bonuses have to accept that they are not guaranteed. If you take a job expecting a bonus and you don't get it then you expected too much. You still get your guaranteed salary. Same with commission jobs. They usually have a base salary and then commissions are paid on top of that based on sales or what ever the metric is for that job. But if you don't perform very well one month and commissions are down... well... better luck next month. Bottom line, don't go in expecting the highest possible outcome. Expect the lowest. If you can't live off that then you take a risk taking the job. If you do end up higher than lowest possible outcome then your risk paid off.

[mikeash]

Bonuses and commissions can be really different. Sometimes they're just supplemental. Sometimes they're the real pay, and the salary is just a nominal token effort. For many jobs, expecting the lowest isn't realistic. You wouldn't take that job if you expected the lowest, because the lowest is unacceptably low and almost never actually happens.

Waiters get tipped. That's the expectation and the reality. Anyone who takes a waiter job not expecting to be tipped is deluded (assuming they don't work for one of the few places that ban it).