Ask HN: I was let go for writing about my depression. What should I do?

[fadelakin]

So this happened around the middle of October and ever since, I've been trying to process my mind around it. I wrote about my depression and shared it with others. I wrote it as way to sort of come to terms with things and let people know that they aren't alone.

A couple days after I wrote it, I shared the piece of writing with a couple people on Twitter. I'm going to guess that my boss must have saw it popup on his timeline which led to me getting a phone call from him. We just talked about it and how I was feeling. He told me to take the next day off. I guess he was trying to be nice and be a good person but the day after the day I was given off, I received another phone call from him. He pretty much said, "I don't think it's best if you come into work. If you have anything of ours, just return them when you feel like it." aka we're letting you go. He reassured me it wasn't because of what I wrote over and over again. I, on the other hand, do think I was let go because of what I wrote. I wasn't given an explanation as to why I was being let go. I don't and didn't think of myself as a liability but I guess that's how I was viewed.

I talked to a couple people about it. Some said he was in his right to let me go, others said it wasn't right for me to be let go. I'm currently on a gap year and all I wanted some work to do and hopefully gain experience from. I can't do that and every junior Android developer position I've applied to in Chicago has pretty much turned me down. Chicago doesn't have that much junior Android developer positions compared to other cities. I can't get the experience I wanted and can't earn the money I planned on earning. At this point, I have no idea what to do. I just work on my own small projects day to day. What do you guys think I should do? Do you think my boss was in his right to let me go even though I didn't mention anything about the company in my writing?

Any help would be appreciated.

[neekburm]

I wrote an article about the ADA amendments a few years ago:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/246397486/The-ADAAA-Congress-Brea...

Major depression, or the perception that someone is depressed, is now considered a disability that the ADA applies to.

If an employer takes a hostile action (denial of promotion, firing, etc.) against someone based on their disability, the victim can sue the employer.

Proving that they fired you because of the article will be an issue, but a skilled disability attorney can probably do that. Presuming that you were otherwise a good employee, it probably won't be too hard to prove that the article was the reason. Talk to a disability attorney, or just contact the EEOC.

http://www.eeoc.gov/employees/charge.cfm

[serf]

This is impossible to word without sounding bad, but I'm legitimately curious as to how the situation would play out:

If a workplace terminated an employee due to writings that the employee wrote which alienated the rest of the workplace and made them feel unsafe, wouldn't that be a pretty easy thing to attest in court ,that the termination was not wrongful but rather motivated by trying to keep a friendly work atmosphere and ensure workers' safety?

That seems like the thing to focus in on if one were to be defending against such a case.

[DanBC]

> and made them feel unsafe

If a person makes a direct threat then yes, obviously the employer can take action to protect their work force.

But why do you think of violence when we're talking about mental illness? The vast majority of violent crime is committed by people who do not have a mental illness.

Your comment is stigmatizing and ignorant. OP is male. You do not seem to be askin about the risk of violence because of his maleness even though most violent crime is commited by men.

About one in six people over 16 have a significant mental health problem. The US has a population of hundreds of million people over sixteen - let's say 250million. That gives about 41 million people with a significant mental illness. Each year about 16,000 people are murdered in US, so even if every single murder was committed by someone with a mental illness you still have 41million (minus 16,000) safe people who have a mental health problem. But research suggests that only about 10% of mirder is committed by someone with a mental illness.

[1] using current UK terminology

[serf]

>Your comment is stigmatizing and ignorant. OP is male. You do not seem to be askin about the risk of violence because of his maleness even though most violent crime is commited by men.

I wrote a big, long diatribe about how wrong it was of you to inject a weird sexism-hued gender argument, but I erased it.

I don't believe that asking a question is ever stigmatizing if done in good faith, and my question (which, by the way, is distinct from a comment) is most certainly in good faith. My question may certainly have been ignorant, but the removal of such ignorance is exactly the goal of my question! I ask to become wiser, I promise.

Simply put : I didn't ask about his gender because it wasn't his gender which alienated me towards him. The product of his authorship; the blog post and the details therein, is what alienated me towards him.

The blog post, with what dangerously little knowledge of psychology I have, made me feel as if it were written by a psychopath. I don't care to state specific reasons publicly. Psychopaths have a larger incidence of impulsive/threatening/amoral behaviors by definition than so-called 'normal' behaviors. That's the reason why I feel compelled to think of violence.

My jump towards violence wasn't as vague as 'mentally ill', but rather specifically towards descriptions of activities within that blog post which I categorized mentally as psychopathic.

One assumes that his co-workers were untrained in mental health disciplines, just as I am. I don't think that it is unreasonable to assume that upon reading the post they may have felt the same way as I did.

Let me distill the actual question for you, so that you can answer the right one this time.

The question was : "If an employee sues for wrongful termination after writing a blog post which has the effect of alienating people towards him, wouldn't it be quite easy to have that workforce testify that "X blog post made me feel Y.", and if so doesn't this pose a problem for OP and his plans to sue?"

The assumption that question falls upon is that I'm not the only person who was alienated by the blog post, and I would assume that if the author was actually an acquaintance that the effect would be stronger.

The question was asked as a hypothetical 'what-if' for possible motives behind the termination; a piece of the overall brainstorming session behind OPs lawsuit, and also a chance for me to better understand how laws work regarding such things. Please use a friendlier tone if you'd care to educate others. I feel that your passion for finding fair treatment for the ill is preventing you from reading what I wrote and considering my actual question without turning into a mouthpiece and discarding the question entirely.

[crazypyro]

You'd have a pretty hard time making the case that the OP was making his co-workers feel unsafe unless you had some concrete proof of a threat of violence or something along that lines.

Not wanting to work with a depressed person is not a valid termination reason because of the categorization as a disability.

[neekburm]

I agree with this analysis. You'd need concrete proof of threat. Otherwise, any employer facing an ADA claim based on mental illness could use the excuse "We're afraid he'll murder us all in a depressed rage" to win.

Reading the post in question, I think the addiction issues are another possible cause of the employer's actions.

Addiction can also be considered an actionable disability, but you have to be treating it or otherwise on the wagon to file suit. I don't have a citation to that on hand, but it's out there.

[fadelakin]

I should mention that I've managed to curb my addiction for the past year and a half now. Coming up to two years clean in December.

[beaverton392]

This is assuming there was an employment relationship. Were you under an employment agreement or was this an independent contractor arrangement?

[ickryricky]

As a person who's suffered from depression, and experienced discrimination because of it, I'd like to encourage you to both sue the shit out of this asshole, and name the company publicly. Don't be ashamed of your depression, and don't let people like this continue to get away with abusing those who suffer from mental illness.

[andymoe]

I think you should talk to a local employment attorney. In the meantime pick yourself up and look for another job... A change of scenery can help too if you are not very tied to your location. Also, I hope you find the help you need. You don't have to take it on all by yourself.

[stonemetal]

The EEO(Equal Employment Opportunity) laws cover mental health so you would have some legal backing if you want to take that path. Personally I would let it go and keep up the job search, or if you can afford it maybe contribute to an open source project.

[DanBC]

You could see a lawyer. Mental illness is one of the "protected characteristics" covered hy US federal law

But this advice is easy to give for someone who isn't actually in the situation.

[sarabmann]

By letting you go, your employer lost a courageous and honest resource so it was not your loss at all.Secondly, I think you don't have serious issue as you are in the right framework of mind to confront and identify the problem.

Try to take project out of Elance and Odesk and if you think you have real good skills that are not valued in Chicago then move to place where your skill set has value. Valley is extremely good technology cluster but Boston,Austin and Seattle are also not bad.

[SSH007]

While you have my sympathies for what you are going through, it really comes off petty when you name your employer. In my experience, there are always two sides to each story. I won't even try to speculate why they might have let you go. If they were discriminating against you because of your depression, then there are legal protections that are provided for you. Naming and shaming your ex employers, does nothing but harm to your future prospects. Prospective Employers, if they hear about how quickly you publicly shamed/named your employer when you two did not see eye to eye, will be hesitant to hire you. In all honesty, I would not.

All We(HNers) have, is your side of the story, there is no defense from the company that let you go. There is very little upside to publicly naming the company, unless you do it in legal proceedings.

I'm not sure if its possible, but I'd highly recommend you deleting the comments where you named the company, or delete this post. It does nobody any good, especially you. Think about it, what did you gain from naming them. I was with you until I saw that you named the company. Again it comes off petty and childish.

You seem fairly young, since you mentioned your experience, so remember that professionalism goes a long way, and also that Life is not fair. Sometimes you'll get blamed for something you didn't do, other times you'll be fired for something shitty like this. Your job is to keep moving ahead all the time, and don't go down to the level of jerks and become a jerk yourself. Stand up for yourself, but don't talk behind other people's back. If they wronged you, then confront them, but give them a chance to defend themselves.

Good luck to you.

[vdaniuk]

Wait, how is he going down to the level of jerks by pulicly naming and shaming a company? Why do you say that? I just don't understand your rationale. This sounds absurd. Could you elaborate maybe?

Yeah, for some future employers it may seem unprofessional, but I would not want to work for such employers.

On the contrary, I would recommend to consult a lawyer, sue them, write a blog about your case and a company, start a movement in the interests of depressed programmers and involve tech media in all of that. This will have both positive externalities and benefits for OP: more protection for depresssed programmers, less incentives for unethical companies to behave like that, traffic for the OP new blog and possibly several job opportunities.

OP, I consider naming and shaming unethical companies like this to be a preferred course of action if done strategically.

Yeah, sometimes, when organizations are locked into Nash equilibrium and any individual actor can't change rules of the game, in that case naming and shaming is unproductive.

Firing a person who has written about their depression? No excuse. Don't give them a chanche to protect themselves(WTF?!). Destroy the company. Help others like you.

EDIT OP, I see you deleted the comments with the name of the company. Please don't let it slide. Fight for yourself and for others who are suffering from depression and are being discriminated against.

[SSH007]

Can't tell if you are being sarcastic, but just in case you are actually serious, perhaps consider just for a second that the company did not fire him because of his depression.

I'm not saying he's lying, but assume for a moment that he got caught up in the emotion and felt that was the reason they fired him. What if it wasn't? What if it was something else? You are telling this young man to start a revolution against a company that may have no malice in their intentions. Naming/Shaming companies have real effect. This company doesn't seem like a multi-national huge corporation with deep pockets, atleast from their webpage I didn't gather that they were. Publicly shaming them may do real damage to the company and people that work there. If the person really was discriminated against, then go the legal route, sue them and settle it that way. If he was wronged, then law is on his side. Once you win that lawsuit, then feel free to blog and start a revolution because then you have a guilty party. Right now, its just his word against no one else's word, they can't defend themselves.

[vdaniuk]

See, when you put is this way your advice is sound and I agree with it. And I recommended to name and shame strategically, while consulting a lawyer.

But in the original comment you called naming the company "petty and childish" and insinuated that he is is behaving like a "jerk", while saying that posting on HN is "talking behind others back". The gist of your comment was "move forward" and be generous to the company by allowing them "to defend themselves".

And this is what I disagree with.

[seekingcharlie]

It's childish in that if they did go to court, the company has a stronger case against OP as he publicly named/shamed them. Often in such a case, the company even becomes the victim!

[devgirl554]

I agree with this. All of the comments about a potential claim OP has against the company assume that he was actually an employee. Perhaps OP can elaborate as to whether he was an employee or not? If he was an independent contractor, then it's a completely different story. Also, by publicly shaming the company, OP also opens himself up for a defamation lawsuit.

[fadelakin]

I deleted the comments but it doesn't mean I'm not going to fight. I'm just trying to be civilized. Exposing the company could make things more complicated and I don't really want that.

[vdaniuk]

Good, happy to hear that. As someone who was also struggling with a depression, among all other methods I'd like to recommend you to try meditation, yoda and taichi.

Meditation has scientifically proven benefits for people affected with depression and anxiety. Please look into it!

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/meditation...

[SSH007]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but this sounds like a much better advice than the one you gave above. I would not have guessed that both comments came from the same person, until I checked the username.

[chadkruse]

Fisher - thank you for taking the high road, for being brave and starting a great dialogue on what I think is an important topic, and a heart-felt congrats on your upcoming two year anniversary of sobriety. Good on you.

[SSH007]

I think you absolutely did the right thing by removing their name. I hope you see a positive end to this situation.

[fadelakin]

Ok. How do I go about deleting comments? It seems I've missed the time to delete the comments.

I do agree with everything you've said though. I now wish I didn't mention the company but I guess it's too late to change that.

EDIT: I emailed [e-mail] about deleting the comments. Hopefully that helps.

EDIT 2: seems like the comments are gone.

[jaoued]

My advice is you must make contact asap with a lawyer who's specialised in Employment Law. He/she will be best placed to put things together based on what you have experienced and decide on the best course of action while gauging if there is or not a case of abusive dismissal. Letting you go while knowing you are suffering from depression is a serious offence.

[angersock]

Hang in there man. Things get better, even if they seem like they never will. :)

Keep working on your hobby projects, maybe go enjoy the parks, and maybe see if there are any little webdev jobs or something available on Craigslist in your area. Worst case, see if anyone is hiring waiters.

Don't stop reaching out for help, and try not to spend too much time in your own head. Good luck!

[dadude]

I would also guess that the reason you were let go had more to do with the admission of addiction history then the depression or the combination of both.

I would get some legal counsel and aim for some form of severance in combination with continued health benefits (if you had any) rather then lengthy litigation that will only add to your burden.

Good luck on your difficult journey.

[fadelakin]

You can read the piece of writing I wrote here: https://medium.com/@tmidao/confession-55fa5d4a3c0b

I'm always happy to clarify on any part that wasn't clear or you need more information on.

[falsestprophet]

Firstly, depression is a serious mental illness with well studied chemical and therapeutic interventions. See a psychiatrist straight away. A few pills may really help your cause.

Sign up for Medicaid (http://www.hfs.illinois.gov/medical/apply.html) and/or talk to the the Cook County Health System psychiatry department (http://www.cookcountyhhs.org/tag/psychiatry/)

I’ve read the Bible and Qur’an front to back 5 times each. They hold no meaning to me.

I've run into some hardline Christians and Mormons in the Chicago software scene and writing that could very well have made you stone cold dead to them. Is your old boss from Wheaton, Illinois or nearby? That seems to be their headquarters.

[fadelakin]

Actually I live in Indiana but very close to Chicago and commute to Chicago daily for work....well I did. My boss was from Indiana and I don't think he was either Christian or Mormon.

I see a psychiatrist and a therapist twice a week. Obviously they're are cutting into my runway but I figured it's worth it since I've been doing much better ever since I wrote the piece of writing.

[falsestprophet]

Spending three hours a day on the South Shore Line would make anyone depressed!

I bet you can get a software internship gig near you. Contact professors doing computational work at Notre Dame (http://ibms.nd.edu/clusters/computational-biology-bioinforma...) they may have room in their budget. Though the pay will not be extravagant.

Indeed shows 300+ software gigs in South Bend: http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=software&l=South+Bend%2C+IN

But DELETE THE FUCKING ARTICLE man. Obviously, it isn't helping your cause.

Also definitely sue your former employer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8597953

[krrishd]

As pragmatic as your solution of deleting the article is, I don't think that should be the action Fisher has to take here, it simply doesn't seem fair. If an employer takes issue with an article like that, then that's your indicator that they aren't right for you to begin with. But I have no experience with any of this so I can't conclusively say much.

[fadelakin]

Thanks Krish. <3

[fadelakin]

I'm deleting the article tonight but I wanted to make sure people got the whole story and I didn't mention the company at all.

I'll definitely look into getting an internship gig and probably spend all of tonight and tomorrow applying for the software gigs that I think I'll be a good fit in. Still debating suing.

[panjaro]

Call your boss for Dinner at the top floor of a big building, show him the cars running on the street, get around him, give a nice kick. Make sure he screams while falling down, record the clip and post it in Youtube.

[clark-kent]

Let me recommend an audio book for you, "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle http://www.audible.com/pd/Religion-Spirituality/The-Power-of....

[adamgray]

There are lots of lawyers in Chicago that would take your case.

[_random_]

Name and shame?

[paulhauggis]

Everyone seems to love how much power they have with social media. Look at the ex-Mozilla CEO. He was bullied and forced to quit as a result of his beliefs.

The flip-side is that business owners can also use this power against you. Be careful what you post on social media, it may come back to get you.

[_RPM]

You mean Brendan Eich? He is not just the ex-Mozilla CEO, He also invented JavaScript.

[ickryricky]

Yeah it really sucks when a wealthy white homophobe is brought down by power hungry social justice warriors, doesn't it.

[penguindev]

Have you read "mans search for meaning"? That guy lived in a concentration camp, so you probably don't have it that bad...

Hope you find something better than pills and/or paying a shrink for the rest of your life. I know you can.

[Devthrowaway80]

Clinical depression is a physiological condition that produces irrational negative emotions that are largely unrelated to the sufferer's circumstances.

Telling a clinically depressed person "buck up, things aren't that bad" is about as helpful as telling somebody with diabetes that "sugar is actually pretty tasty, you should just try it again and see if you like it."

Those pills you so casually dismiss prevented me from taking my own life and have lifted a lifelong fog.

Hope you can find something better to do with your time than writing incredibly ignorant comments on Hacker News. I know you can.

[penguindev]

- I went through clinical depression myself 10 years ago. I think the OP deserves a second opinion.

- I would tell someone with type 2 diabetes to stop taking drugs and instead stop eating the carbs (of course the politically correct pharmaceutical / govt response is to take drugs which only treat the symptoms - funny how financial interests work). Again, first hand experience with this.

[amagumori]

if you "went through" clinical depression you didn't have clinical depression. you felt bad for a while.

[davidddavidson]

Would you tell someone not feel happy because someone else has it better? Then don't tell someone not to feel sad because someone else has it worse.

[penguindev]

I had to think about your question for a while. However, I think the issue is the premise: you imply "has it better" = "how you feel". Whereas Dr. Frankl says (and has observed) "you always have the power of choice, that's the one thing nobody can take away".

So no, I would say you can look to either people "having it bad" or "having it good" and finding in both cases they have the power to make choices.

[davidddavidson]

So your cure for someone suffering from clinical depression is just to choose not to feel depressed?