[zealog]

While an interesting examination, the problem with articles like this is they have lots of graphs and math to maximize dollars without any consideration of value that can't be stored in the bank; like pride of ownership, owner enjoyment, confidence in reliability, and predictable monthly expenditures (as a function of warranty).

There is more to value and cost than money.

[agnokapathetic]

Buying new cars is financially crippling.

http://www.daveramsey.com/etc/lms/drive_free/player.cfm

[xexers]

A car costs about $10-12k per year on average (including gas, insurance, payments, repairs).

If you live in a city with great public transportation, an annual pass will cost about $1200. Taking taxis and renting cars to fulfil those other trips won't add up to much. You can save even more money this way and go green at the same time :)

[timr]

Yes. I sold my car and motorcycle before moving to SF. Now I use a Zipcar occasionally, taxis a few times a month, and mostly rely on my feet, public transit and my bike.

In SF, a transit pass costs $60 a month for an adult. I probably spend $60 a month on Zipcar (at most), and maybe $30 on cabs. So that's $150 a month on transportation. When I lived in Seattle (a cheaper place than SF) with my beater car, I paid that in auto insurance and parking alone. Even though I didn't drive that much, I was easily spending $300 a month on the car.

I've done this for over a year now, and I really don't miss having a car. Services like Zipcar really make it convenient for those rare occasions when I need a vehicle. The rest of the time, it's incredibly nice not to have to think about it.

[ganley]

Where'd you get that figure? AAA says 71c/mile, or $7100/year if you drive 10K miles, and that's an average, meaning it's possible to do much better.

Otherwise, I agree with you in principle, but living in a city with great public transportation isn't an option for everyone.

As for the original analysis, the point where maintenance costs exceed the value of the vehicle is irrelevant. I typically drive cars way past the point where they're basically worthless; as long as the maintenance costs are under a couple of thousand a year, I figure I'm better off than I would be buying a replacement.

[eru]

Why? Getting a used replacement that's just a bit better than your old worthless car should be more or less free.

[randallsquared]

If you used taxis and rental cars like you'd use a car you owned, it would be far more expensive, even in the cases where it would be possible (want to run out to the store when you discover you don't have any X while Y is cooking? You're out of luck in most places, unless you have a car).

I just spent a year and a half without a car, and it was a nightmare some weeks. It basically means no spontaneous trips unless you happen to have an extra half an hour to get there, on average. Oh, and the choice between spending several hours a week grocery shopping (mostly in walking to and from the store) or paying 15% extra to have most stuff delivered isn't fun. I think if you put an hourly price on all the inconvenience, a car comes off as the less expensive option.

[igrekel]

I wouldn't base that large an expense on something like the cooking problem. I just try to plan better, improvise, have someone cooking for me or just eat out (not these days tough). The problem exists even if you have a car but live out of town.

As always, you need to look at your life and make the appropriate choices. I spent many years without a car and I look back to it as a good time. The trick is to look at things globally and then not sweat on the small expenses (like the grocery delivery charge and taxi fares) if they were budgeted as a way to afford bigger costs.

[randallsquared]

I just try to plan better, improvise, have someone cooking for me or just eat out (not these days tough).

Ultimately, that's the choice, yes: is it worth having a device to avoid having to plan your life around not having it.

The problem exists even if you have a car but live out of town.

That's true. The difference in rent/mortgage is important there, though. In reality, the car I bought last weekend will not cost me anything like 10-12K over the next year (2K for the car, 1K for insurance, 1-2K for gas) unless it has terrible repair costs, but there's an upper limit of 2-3K on repairs before I just buy a different car. Now, if you're paying $500/mo plus insurance and drive it 50 miles to work every day, it might be different.

[thismat]

Grocery delivery charge? You mean to say you can have your groceries delivered to your door on a regular basis? I want that!

[randallsquared]

Around DC, there are several such, including Peapod (operated by Giant) and Safeway.com. I've used both, and while neither have a great selection or a perfect web interface for shopping, they do okay if you take the inherent limitations into account (don't order produce or breakables, and assume they'll fail to stock sufficient quantities of low-margin things, like 2L soda, in my experience).

[dagw]

The simple and obvious solution to the shopping problem is to never buy or rent a house more than 10 minutes walk from the nearest food store...

[randallsquared]

Yet this completely wipes out the savings from not having a car, in most places where not having a car is otherwise feasible, I'd imagine.

But 25 minutes (10 each way and an optimistic 5 to get something, wait in line, check out...) is too long for this use case anyway, in my opinion; it's just barely possible with a car, and I live about 12 minutes walk or 3-4 minutes drive from a store right now.

[rg]

--and 10 minutes is the outer limit. Good dense places to live have food shops open long hours within 5 minutes walk, because all those people depend on them.

[patio11]

He's overly optimistic about the long-term returns to stocks, but the basic plan works.

[thismat]

I think his optimism comes from what he has experienced as an average annual growth over the life of the market, I haven't checked the figures myself though.

I often wondered why Dave Ramsey wasn't more popular with HN, he promotes starting businesses like a startup needs to start, work on the side, build your business logically, work your tail off and run LEAN (though he goes a little further and says pay cash for everything).

[tyn]

Plus he doesn't take inflation into account