[terranstyler]

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have.

It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory.

[1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

[bayesianhorse]

Non-Souvereignty is largely regarded as a wild conspiracy theory. And really, what kind of evidence is there?

Inevitably, signs of "foreign control" turns out to be some form of competition, cooperation, trade or just plain common interests.

What counts more is that Germans are allowed to say anything they want, there is no evidence of tampering in elections, the press is free and extensive, and people can largely do as they please. Nothing is ever perfect, but claiming US sovereignty over Germay is just plain stupid.

[igl]

It is not plain stupid. It's actually a good opportunity to figure out what the Grundgesetzbuch is (yes, it is actually not a valid 'constitution') Even Scheuble said the sovereignty issues went into 'ad absurdum' since ww2. There is contract after contract after contract. Germany is in so much need of a rewrite of its law books. Everything is corrected by extensions and special rule. The amount of paperwork germans produce is INSANE and should easily push someone to think "Wait there is something f'ed here".

- Say anything they want: Unless you mention the H with the J's... and cough Horst Köhler cough

- No evidence of tampering in elections: mmmmmmh there are always issues in the east and there is always something coming up in small districts or states. They are not major but important nonetheless (Read: Local press)

- The press is free and extensive: LOL!!!!!!!!! Axel Springer and Spiegel dictate the opinion here, everyone else is a jew-baby-eating holocost denier.

- people can largely do as they please: yes, if they can afford a lawyer to help them with the paperwork.

Not getting into this stuff and just accepting everything would be plain stupid.

[terranstyler]

Well, first let me state that I am not sure what to make of this Non-sovereignty.

However, here are some of the arguments I find interesting:

- A decent amount of videos about this topic can be found on youtube, most of the feature also Schäuble (Minister of Finance) saying that Germany neither is nor ever was souvereign.

- Untampered elections are necessary but not sufficient for democracy. What if you elect someone and the newly elected just do as they please after the election? (see US or Germany)

- free press: This is my personal opinion but I often find that very interesting things happen worldwide and the German press doesn't care or all major journals have the same opinion (example: EU is good, Russia is bad, Ukraine is Putin's fault)

[Zigurd]

> makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have.

Don't wonder. Throughout the Cold War it was patriotic to sacrifice some of your nation's sovereignty to secret agreements and relationships to make your country safer from the very real Soviet threat.

Now all those agreements and relationships have been repurposed in the Global War on Terror. So first you have to decide how much sovereignty you, as an insider who took part in those agreements, want, and how much alienation from your voters you can stand.

[rtpg]

>[1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

Considering the comments I see on websites like the Guardian, I don't know why I'd trust the comments section on any German newspaper.

Maybe the Germans like that the US is footing the bill for most of the intelligence gathering in the world.

[bayesianhorse]

Germany is a smaller country than the US, has a pacifistic streak a mile wide and hasn't been hit hard by islamic terror yet.

You bet we aren't outspending the US.

[terranstyler]

I don't read the Guardian comment section. What is the difference between the Guardian and a comparable major German newspaper w.r.t. comments?

[rtpg]

I'm saying in general comments sections on newspaper's websites do not represent the actual majority opinion of a population.

[bayesianhorse]

Comment sections in major newspapers? These are dominated by a strange mixture of right-wing conservatives. They are heavily moderated to exclude hate-speech (enough of it makes it through so, and so does the latent attitude of things "Turks are an underrace"), and display a shocking replication of Russian fairy tales.

I would stubbornly refuse to call this a representative cross section of German opinion.