[rdtsc]

Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor.

So now it is the fault of the pursuer for not working hard enough or "screwing up" an initial encounter protocol and being pushed into the "friend zone". Which is like a terribly deep gravity well that the will require a tremendous amount of energy to get out of.

[Exenith]

It's pretty fucking rash to say that an attempt to impress someone is equivalent to objectification and sexism. It might reflect an inability to accept rejection, but I would hardly compare it to subhuman treatment (which is what objectification means -- treating someone without regard to their humanity).

I sincerely hope this trend of reducing every male behaviour to sexism strangles itself.

[HeyImAlex]

I think you can find objectification at the root of anger and bitterness associated with the friend zone (which is often how I see the term used; the girl "puts you" in the friend zone after all). "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" does show a disregard for the humanity of the admired; women are allowed to have opinions, and hitting all of the imaginary checkboxes on what make you perfect for her doesn't entitle you to anything.

[klipt]

> "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee"

Unfortunately this attitude is lionized in Hollywood and popular culture ... with the implication that if you dream hard enough, he/she will see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuNIsY6JdUw

[A_COMPUTER]

I have never actually seen complaints about the friendzone as a manifestation of entitlement, only lament.

[Dewie]

Rejection sucks some times, and bitterness and blame is one way to cope with it (and hopefully it is only temporary, and you don't take it out on anyone). Bitterness often manifests itself as unfairly blaming the other party. These are emotions, the words and opinions that they evoke don't necessarily have any rational basis.

[HeyImAlex]

Yeah, you're probably right. You could probably still argue that emotions can be subconsciously driven by an ingrained sexist worldview, but I think anyone who is rejected goes through bitterness and that's just natural.

Id written something long and rambly, but to kind of summarize my thoughts, "friendzone" is used in lot of different ways and means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

[watwut]

I do not think "But I'm so perfect for her, why can't she just seeeee" shows a disregard for the humanity of the admired.

It is essentially the same as "my essay was so good why cant teacher seeeee" or "my art is so good why cant people seee" or "I run so fast why coach can not pick me" or any other situation where person have a hard time to accept rejection.

You do not make any service to women by seeing sexism every time a guy does not reacts perfectly.

[lclarkmichalek]

I believe most people would agree with that view; the negative side of the "friend zone" is from the "I've put so much effort into this girl, why isn't she having sex with me" opinions you sometimes seem espoused on reddit and other similar haunts of the angsty teenage male.

[sizzle]

I also find it fascinating that if one tries to explicitly express interest beyond being just friends, the 'friend zone' is forever altered as an ulterior motive will likely be questioned when engaging in future events thereafter.

This places the person who would like to be more than just friends in an uneasy predicament: either keep their mouth shut and preserve their 'friend' title, or profess their true feelings and gamble away having that person in their life anymore.

[sheepmullet]

"Exactly. I think the "friend zone" concept reflects the cultural idea that a person (mostly woman) can be persuaded to fall in love with someone if that someone just tries hard enough. It kind of reflect the idea of women as passive objects that have to be "conquered" or "persuaded" by feats of courage, strength, show of wealth or humor."

I feel it's the exact opposite. The entire idea behind being friendzoned is that you can't get out of it and should cut your losses. It isn't considered heroic to "fight" the friendzone... it is considered stupid.

The problem with the friendzone is the power imbalance. If there is no imbalance it is just simple friendship. A few women love the power and take advantage of it just like a few bosses love the power and take advantage of their employees.

If the cool "jock" takes advantage of the nerd who desperately wants to be cool we (society) think the jock is being an asshole. But if an attractive woman does the same thing it is suddenly the nerd who is at fault.

[okasaki]

I don't understand. How can "objects" be persuaded?

[rdtsc]

That is a metaphor to represent how one side is assumed to be passive that needs to be persuaded by harder work. Being pushed into the friendzone is often portrayed as a failure of the suitor to follow a prescribed protocol (being more insistent at fist, etc.).