[kjackson2012]

As a former bully, my advice to anyone being bullied is to fight back.

I wasn't someone who would physically attack people, but I would relentlessly verbally abuse them. I'm not sure about the legal consequences these days but I know that if the person I picked on punched me in the face, I'd probably back down. This is what I have told my kids if they ever find themselves bullied. I'm not sure about the circumstances of the OP but I do think if you allow the bullying to fester, then kids who normally wouldn't bully start looking at you as a target and join in. The key is to not make yourself a target and if they know every time they bully you, that you will fight back tooth and nail, eventually they will choose someone else. It's sad and unfair, but true. It's like Lord of the Flies.

The one thing that makes me glad that I'm not younger is the fact that I didn't have the internet when I was a kid. I know for a fact I would have engaged in cyberbullying so I'm glad I never had access to a tool like this when I was at my worst.

[SoftwareMaven]

I agree, but I don't think it is ever that easy. The problem is bullies target people who they know won't fight back, whose personality makes that particularly difficult. There is usually more than one bully involved, too, which makes one feel like s/he has to try to fight back against all of them, an overwhelming proposition.

Benjamin Franklin's solution to getting a person who hated him to like him was to get the other person to do things for him[1]. Doing something for somebody you hate causes cognitive dissonance, as you do positive things for a "negative" person, and the way this often resolves is through a reduction of those negative feelings (empathy may also play a role). Suspension and other punishments don't solve the underlying problem, which is a lack of empathy. A punishment of service to the abused seems like it would be more useful.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect

[kjackson2012]

Yes, but that's the point. I never picked on someone who I felt would fight back. I don't know how I developed this intuition as a kid but it was fairly accurate. The thing is if the kid fought back then I would probably have picked someone else. It must be hard for the bullying victim but it's something that has to be done.

This link you gave is interesting. My corollary to this is as a victim, never do favors for your bullier. It only makes you look weaker in their eyes and it will only spur them on. For me, the only solution is to fight back and make yourself not look an easy target.

[zorbo]

> It must be hard for the bullying victim but it's something that has to be done.

That's another thing. I sometimes wonder if, with all these rules and regulations and protections in place, we're not taking away some of the development that kids have to do for themselves. Standing up to a bully is extremely hard, but it's something a lot of kids eventually just have to do. I honestly think it builds character to do so.

[jdbernard]

I think the Ben Franklin effect depends on the person willingly performing the favor. The cognitive dissonance arises from the conflict of their own willing action. Subconsciously the thought looks something like, "I don't like this person, but I did choose to help them, so I must not really dislike them all that much."

A punishment of service to the abused is likely forcing the attacker to do it against his will. If anything I think that would make the attacker feel even more hateful towards the abused. The subconscious thought is something like: "That little dweeb got me in trouble. Then they made me kiss up to him. I can't stand it."

[kamaal]

As some who was/is(by managers) being bullied.

The best line of defense against bullying is to become indifferent to bullying. And act like despite the best efforts from the bully, you are just not getting bullied. Or the bully is trying his/her level best and you just don't take them seriously at all. Nothing pisses off bullies as badly as this. You can literally enjoy the expressions on their face when you see how you have defeated them mentally. And know one thing, bullying is mind tactics. And you have to fight it out that way.

Like many innocent looking nerds. I was not only bullied by kids, but by a few teachers too.

Last year, one of my school mates called for re union at a local cafe. Everyone gathered, among them was a guy who helped my Math teacher in high school to bully me. He not only bullied me, but fed the teacher with all sorts of wrong information and got me bullied through him. Anyways the guy was present, and he doesn't seemed to done anything much in life so far. Then my other friends sort of praised as to how far I had gone among all other dudes in our class.

For whatever that brief moment. It looked like the bully's face had dried, gone cold and the expression on his face looked like a greater defeat had been handed over to him.

[swombat]

Unfortunately, it sounds like you fell in the same trap that I was in for a number of years after school.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but in your case, the bullies have won.

> For whatever that brief moment. It looked like the bully's face had dried, gone cold and the expression on his face looked like a greater defeat had been handed over to him.

Years later, you still care enough that hurting the bully made you feel good (and in a serious way: by making him feel that he's a failure in life. Uppercut!) That's not a victory, my friend, that's defeat. Victory is when you're free of the long-term influence and side-effects of the bullying.

I strongly encourage you to examine your life and find which parts of it and of your character have been affected by this bullying, and set to work actually undoing the influence that this has had on you. As long as you let the bullying define who you are, you've not won. That's perhaps one of the most pernicious aspects of bullying - the long-term overshadowing of all the things you do in your later life.

[kamaal]

I get the broad idea.

Actually I never went to the re union with those memories at all. But when I saw the person, I just recalled everything that happened back then.

>>Years later, you still care enough that hurting the bully made you feel good

Sorry but I never did anything to the bully, but he did it to himself. Instead of spending his time studying or making good use of the time in some meaningful way, his plan of action was pull down others.

That can work once or twice, with some helpless people. But life itself is a bigger problem, and you can't bully life. The fact that most bullies end up in prison or with permanent problems with anger and people issues. And then land up in life long economic misery, is a self infliction.

I some how get a feeling that most bullies realize the futility of physical power in a world where power and money hold the key to success. And then also realize its the innocent looking nerds who are likely to win big. There fore try to pre-screw/pre-revenge them for the likely outcome they will face in the future: "Ending up doing small time jobs for nerds themselves".

[notlisted]

You touch upon an important point: so often teachers are simply complicit.

In my school, a PE teacher allowed other kids to bully the same guy over and over again, walking out the room when they pointed a fire-hose at him because he wouldn't shower after class (for medical reasons I found out much later). I also remember him smiling in agreement when kids laughed at the smallest kid who was a little stalled in his development and had small private parts. What a guy!

Years later I told him off at a reunion, in public, what a horrible man and disgrace to education he truly was. He left the event. Good riddens.

[rwallace]

That's the worst thing you can possibly do. Damn near any other course of action is better than just sitting there and taking it.

The first line of defense against bullying is to fight back. More often than not, this will suffice; even if you don't win the fights, most bullies will leave you alone once it's clear picking on you is more trouble than it's worth.

But if that's not viable - if the power imbalance is too extreme, or if the level of violence is life-threatening - then you need to either get backup (parents, teachers, senior management, police, as applicable) or leave the situation, permanently. Yes, that means dropping out of school or quitting your job is the right thing to do if no other countermeasure is available.

[kamaal]

I would definitely advice getting help in case of violence. And the bully must be dealt with real consequences which punishes them in harshly, in order to mend their ways.

>>Damn near any other course of action is better than just sitting there and taking it.

I am saying the same. Don't take it. Don't take it at all.

Just like the best way to stop trolls is to 'not feed the trolls'. Just don't take them seriously at all. At workplaces I've used this technique and found bullies to grind their teeth in frustration.

[kjackson2012]

Ignoring me never worked. It would actually encourage and motivate me to keep going and upping my verbal attacks until I got a reaction from you.

I do not suggest to anyone to just simply ignore their bully.

[kabdib]

As a bullying victim, I concur that ignoring the bullies does not work.

In my case I switched schools (bullying continued, probably because of my personality), and things didn't improve until my last year of school, when I switched schools again.

[gress]

This might work in some cases where the bully is a pathological outlier but if you're in a culture that systematically supports bullying (e.g. Because of race or class), it won't.

Sometimes bullies are the odd one out, but often they simply representing an aspect of the culture that is actually condoned by those around them.

[verisimilidude]

Interesting. When I was a kid, verbal tactics were my defense against bullying. Whenever a bully tried to give us shit, I'd hit back with ruthless insults. Divorces, learning disabilities, etc. Nothing was off limits. For the most part, it worked, though there are still some people who avoid me today because I pushed back too hard.

The great equalizer in my life was my autistic brother. It was the 80s, before anyone knew about or understood autism. He was constantly under threat from bullies. And as a physically small kid, my verbal battery was the only tool I had to defend him.

That situation gave me a lot of perspective. If not for my brother, I imagine I may have been a verbal bully like you. Would've been interesting to put us in the same school back then.

[pessimizer]

As a black kid, punching some verbal abuser in the face is a good way to get caught in the system for the rest of your life.

[leorocky]

Why did you bully? Why did you stop? How do you feel about your actions now?

[kjackson2012]

I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm remorseful of what I did as a kid. I was at times the ringleader that would make fun of particular kids and if I were a parent now, I would do my utmost to get me kicked out of school.

I grew up in a happy household, my parents were both highly educated, and my siblings and I are all relatively successful. I don't think my parents even knew about my bullying because I was really good at making sure I didn't get in trouble for it.

I didn't bully everyone, just particular kids. The best way to describe it is that I saw weakness in some kids, it sickened me, and I wanted to crush it. I didn't do it to make myself feel better, or because I had self esteem issues or to make myself popular. I was amongst the top students in my class, had a bunch of friends, and even kind of nerdy so it wasn't like I was a stereotypical jock picking on nerds.

I can't explain why I felt this way, I just did. And to be honest, I can still feel these feelings sometimes around certain people, but I just stifle them because I know it's wrong. So I think it must be genetic and something I was born with because despite me knowing it's wrong and I don't want to act on my feelings, when I interact with some people I still get the same feelings of "God this person is weak, I want to crush them."

This is why I recommend people fight back against their bullies. If the person I bullied punched me in the face, not only would I not want to get into a fight (as I mentioned I never physically attacked anyone and never got into fights because I was really good at picking kids who wouldn't fight back) but then I would reconsider whether they were actally weak or not.

[leorocky]

What is end goal of "crushing them?" You want them to stop being weak? You want them to not be in your life anymore? Quit their job, or quit their school?

I also sense weakness, I was in the Marines, and my impulse is also to be tough with "weak" people, but in a avuncular helpful way, leading them to be stronger. You have to give them queues that you're on their side even as you're not putting up with the bullshit. In the civilian world you have less room to do it and you have less of a standing to involve yourself even if you think you ought to. If someone doesn't like my tougher approach, and it becomes a problem, I transform into being the polar opposite, overly nice, very careful with that person. I don't think this would help them, but I can at least build a personal relationship with them that works.

I'd be proud of someone, whether I had anything to do with it or not, if a weak person stood up for themselves. I think bullying just makes weak people even less self confident and even weaker.

[kjackson2012]

I was a child so I had no end goals. I hated their weakness and wanted to make them suffer.

These days, whenever I feel those same feelings albeit a lot more muted, I stifle them because I know I'm the one who is wrong. If I just can't stand being around the person because they annoy me too much, I'm still cordial and friendly but I remove myself out of the situation.

[leorocky]

> I was a child so I had no end goals. I hated their weakness and wanted to make them suffer.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I know you already regret your past, but I just don't understand why anyone would ever think this is the right thing to do. I'm pretty sure my 6 year old daughter knows better than this. It is probably genetic. I think the thing missing here is empathy and there is evidence linking genes and ability to feel empathy.

[kjackson2012]

I'm sure almost everyone knows it's wrong, and I probably knew it was wrong too, which is why I was secretive about it in the sense that I never really got caught by teachers or my parents.

If I were born hundreds of years ago, I probably would have been a very hateful person, burning purported witches at the stake, etc. I'm just glad that I'm not that type of person now and that I was able to be self aware enough to stop my own behavior before it became a pervasive aspect of my personality. To answer your question as to why I stopped, I think I just realized it was wrong, and was wondering what was wrong with me and I didn't want to be that person.

[FD3SA]

This is a fascinating piece. That you still don't understand your motivations is a testament to evolution's sinister machinations.

My friend, you are describing your evolutionary impulses with incredible accuracy. Humans are primates, and primates form social hierarchies spontaneously. Furthermore, tribes of primates must fight against rival tribes for food and mates. Whether you knew it or not, you were on a mission to purge your tribe of weak members, whom you deemed as parasites and liabilities. If they fought back it would mean they wren't weak, and you would be satisfied, as they had proven they could be useful to the tribe.

I would recommend you read Dawkins' Selfish Gene, and a few landmark evolutionary psychology books like The Moral Animal, Blank Slate, Sex at Dawn, and any others that have come out since.

Human behavior is fascinating, and rarely is an extremely widespread behavior (e.g. bullying, religiosity, etc.) prevalent without a strong causal foundation, which very often is linked to increased fitness in an ancestral environment.

[slavik81]

As a former victim of bullying, my advice is that fighting is the wrong move. The only thing anyone will see is that you started a fight. You will be suspended or expelled, and the bullies will not be punished nearly as severely. Worse, other bullies will see how you reacted and try to provoke you into lashing out again.

It's not worth it.

[hahamrfunnyguy]

Depends on if you win the fight or not. A black eye or two is a badge of shame for a few days at least.

[fixedd]

Ender: "Knocking him down was the first fight. I wanted to win all the next ones, too."

[mcguire]

Note: kicking him in the head until he dies has certain issues as well.

[hga]

Ender, as an ultra-rare 3rd child in a world wide society/government that enforced a 2 child per family policy (long before people started to realize such was stark raving mad), as a "super-genius" (why a 3rd child from his parents was allowed, if not quasi-required), potentially had many more such fights, at some level recognized that, and was essentially bred to respond in such a fashion (weasel word since the authorities were rolling the dice in the hope he'd be a suitable balance of his older siblings).

Very much a special case, only partially applicable to situations in the real world, here and now.

But there's reasons the short story and the first novel resonate with so many of us....