[plinkplonk]

EDIT: I would love to hear what exactly is "offending" people in the following.

"Any one hiring in india?"

As far as I can see all the jobs above are in the United States.

(Edit : changed order of paragraphs to address Paras's comment below)

Most software companies in India are either body shoppers (TCS, Wipro, Infosys) or are "Offshore Developement Centres" (ODC) (e.g IBM, Intuit, etc) which do crap work no one in the US offices want to do. Neither type needs or inspires great engineers.

Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things, which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engineers.). When you have an industry dominated by outsourcing/ODC it is hard to find a engineering focussed organizations.

Even the India centres of great companies like Google or Yahoo do (comparatively) uninteresting work - I have friends in both Google Bangalore and Yahoo Bangalore and they confirm this. Yahoo Blr does mostly operations , the "Yahoo Research" division in Bangalore is a joke. Google Bangalore is not much better, though it has a couple of US returned engineers who are decent but by and large no really great projects happen here. Goog blr doesn't have much of a reputation within Google either.

To get the kind of jobs advertised here, one of two things needs to happen (1) India develops its own rich ecosystem of technically sophisticated startups (except a couple of very small unfunded startups, most are just trying to copy existing ideas and don't need any skills beyond pretty generic php mysql etc) or (2) great engineers in India should be able to telecommute for the startups advertised here.

Neither situation exists today, which is a tragedy. I know seriously good people who don't want to go through the visa/greencard grind and so are stuck in awful jobs.

All that said, I'll be glad to be proved wrong. If there are any Indian startups which are (1) funded (enough to apay a decent salary) (2) doing (technically) interesting things and (3) looking for great engineers, I hope they add a job listing here.

[paraschopra]

>Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things , which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engineers.

I downvoted you because of the offensive generalization you made. I would have appreciated a thoughtful analysis rather than a general bash that your reply seems to be.

[plinkplonk]

"I downvoted you because of the offensive generalization you made."

Interesting. Why should you be offended? Let's take a look at the statement you quoted as "offensive".

"Indian companies aren't (by and large) startups and/or doing technically sophisticated things , which is what would need great (vs just decent, or worse) engineers."

The "by and large" bit of the statement you quoted is a qualifier that means exactly what it says. In other words by saying

I am saying

(1) Most Indian companies aren't startups. (But a few are). (2) Most Indian companies aren't doing technically sophisticated things. (But a few - in this case a very small minority) are.

If you think either of those statements are wrong, please make a counter argument with logic or facts instead of being "offended". I would love to hear a convincing argument that most Indian companies are startups and/or that they are doing technically sophisticated things.

That said, downvote away if it makes you happy! I couldn't care less about my karma score! Downvoting is your privilege as a member of HN. Whether you use that privilege blindly or thoughtfully is completely up to you. :-)

PS: I am Indian, live and work in India etc, fwiw.

[paraschopra]

(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India.

(2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India.

Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted.

It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to.

[plinkplonk]

"It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to"

Oh I completely agree. I was just wondering if you thought I was some Non Indian "bashing" Indians. Good to know you are not.

"(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India.

(2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India."

First adressing the point you make above, I did follow up with a paragraph (in the OP) on how Indian companies are mostly outsourcing based or ODC's attempting to do low quality work their parent organizations shift to India. In other words I am making a direct Causal link between the fact that most compoanies in India do bodyshopping/outsourcing to why great enginers find working here frustrating.I've edited the order of paragraphs to represent that emphasis if it weren't clear.

You were the one who chose that sentence as specifically "offensive". Pointing out that this isn't specific to India isn't the same as being "offended".

If you are saying that there are companies, especially startups in India that match the technological sophistication of say Facebook or Google, I'd love to hear specific cases. I hold my opinions very loosely and am quite willing to be corrected/

That said, "Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted."

I am not "bashng" anyone. I don't need a "safety device". What I wrote is what I genuinely believe. I am not a politician trying to convince anyone to think as I do!

This is a completely wrong argument. What "the data shows" is what is important. Instead of trying to guess my intent ("bashing" , "offending" and so on, without much to base these judgments on), why don't you counter my argument?

My argument is that outsourcing companies are very common and sophisticated startups are very very rare (practically no existent and less than say about 15 or so in number at most) in India and consequently there isn't a large market for really good engineers, who mostly migrate to the USA.

If you believe I am wrong,here is a challenge for you. why don't you name some Indian startups (say 10 would do) which are (a) funded (b) doing technologically sophisticated software? That way all of us benefit.

[jacquesm]

Glusterfs comes to mind. Some of the code from that project is simply way out of the ballpark. Check the 'continuation across network' macro in one of the C header files, if you don't want to take my word for it.

It's more sophisticated than anything else that I've seen in a long long time.

The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule. And weasel words ('the safety device') are not needed, you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow.

The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things. I'd hazard such a statement about my own country, which is a LOT smaller than India.

The outsourcing wave has put lots of money into the Indian economy, and just like what happened in Japan after drudgework and copying comes a wave of innovation. You can't stop that cycle. India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are).

Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years, they have one headstart over everybody else, ramen profitable there means hosting + $500 / month.

[plinkplonk]

@jacquesm

Strange that you use GlusterFS as an example.Yes they are technically sophisticated but then I know the CTO of ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS), Anand Babu, personally and he is a good friend. Some of the people who wrote the core code are Indians (including Anand) who live in the United States.

Do they have an office in Bangalore? Sure they do. This is the "ODC" model I referred to, where development is done in India because it is cheaper.

With that disposed of,

"The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule."

(a) I didn't refer to any "stereortypes" (b) I never claimed this was the "one and only" rule.

"you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow."

Sure! I'll be glad to when any of my claims is refuted.

meanwhile, may I suggest you do the same for using GlusterFS as an example of an Indian startup? ;-).

ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS) is very much an American company which has some Indians among its founding members. It was founded in the United States by people who were living there at the time. If any startup having an Indian amongst its founders is an "Indian startup" then sure ZR is "Indian". The decision makers (irrespective of ethnicity) all live in the USA and the core of the code is written in the USA == "American Company" to me whether they have an office in India or not. I suspect this is where we differ.

I am confused. you say

"The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things."

and then

"India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are).

Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years,"

Isn't the latter an example of the former? In this case the "one person making generalizations" (about the future in tis case) being you. Nothing wrong with that of course. There are always exceptions to almost any "rule" one can think of.

Have you lived or worked in India? How would you know what the "Indian software landscape" looks like? What facts support your contention that list is very "diverse"?

I agree that in the future technically sophisticated startups may emerge out of India. In the present such startups are VERY rare.

One example of such a startup is "guruji.com" - an Indian search company (I know people who work there). They don't have much traction yet but they do some interesting work . I know a couple of unfunded startups trying to do interesting things.

All this doesn't change the fact that the Indian softare industry is largely about outsourcing and most Indian startups largely do not try to do technically sophisticated things. THIS was my contention not "there isn't a single technically sosphisticated startup in India"

I maintain there is nothing "offensive" about that idea. it is just the truth. I am surprised people get "offended".

If I had ever said "India is doomed to always be an outsourcing destination", I can see how it could offend. Since I never claimed anything like that, (vs people randomly getting "offended" but offering no real counter examples) I don't feel the need to defend an obvious strawman.

As to "weasel words" I never knew "most" was a weasel word ;-). I look forward to the day when we all speak in absolutes ;-).

OK that said, this argument is now degenerating (indentation depth is a good metric) and so I'll withdraw. (My email is available in my profile for those who would like to take this offline)

Anyone reading this please list any great Indian startups you know who are looking for great engineers. This would be very helpful.

[ronzensci]

By and large I would agree with the summary you have provided of the "high-tech" scenario in India. Though, I would also take exception to some of the statements you have made. I have worked for a year in one of the services companies (I detest the word body-shoppers) you've mentioned. I have also worked in Bangalore for an ODC of a US technology products company. It is true to say that most of the work done in these organizations is not really technically sophisticated.

The part of your note which did not resonate well with me was this: "except a couple of very small unfunded startups, most are just trying to copy existing ideas and don't need any skills beyond pretty generic php mysql etc". - I'm not sure what kind of research would give you the necessary insight to make such a statement. For a tech guy from India who has worked globally- such a statement undermines your whole writeup.

Your next statement also disappointed me greatly "great engineers in India should be able to telecommute for the startups advertised here." Can you estimate the carbon footprint created by such a telecommute? - The Carbon Footprint generated by a single roundtrip flight between India and USA / Canada overshoots the annual footprint of an average Indian by 62%. To suggest a telecommuting option between the India and US to me is absurd and environmentally criminal.

Also, the wishlist you have given for Indian startups does exist. You just need to look for it in the right places. Such information would not come to you on the headlines of ET but is available deep in the web somewhere.

I have realized that "great" (I'm not sure how you define such a term) engineers in India like to be courted by companies as they feel that by gaining intellectual prowess they should just have to sit back and wait for companies to come to them. This is especially true if one has been working for a large US Tech MNCs. This is not really the mindset for entrepreneurship. If you are really looking to join an Indian startup as a part of the founding team- reach out to them and let them know what you can offer instead of waiting for them to add a job listing here.

[plinkplonk]

@ronscenzi,

Thank you for your cogent reply. I claim no infallibility and am glad to be corrected when I goof up. That said,

"I have worked for a year in one of the services companies (I detest the word body-shoppers) you've mentioned."

Hmm I used "body shoppers" as a functional description. Why should you beoffended? isn't that what these companies do? (I've workd for these companies too btw. So I amnot putting myself up on some predestal)

" I have also worked in Bangalore for an ODC of a US technology products company. It is true to say that most of the work done in these organizations is not really technically sophisticated."

Ok great. we have some grounds for agreement.

"The part of your note which did not resonate well with me was this: "except a couple of very small unfunded startups, most are just trying to copy existing ideas and don't need any skills beyond pretty generic php mysql etc". - I'm not sure what kind of research would give you the necessary insight to make such a statement."

Ok what I meant by this was that a good chunk of startups in India are duplicating success stories from the USA and do not necessarily need people with skills in say Erlang or Haskell or Kernel Hacking expertise and so on. Please, look at the job descriptions of Indian startups? How many ask for or requiredeep Javascript or MySQL experience? Most are just throwing up random webpages.

I know a few exceptions but most startups in India lack either technical or business sophistication (Yes I know this will be controversial. I stand by this claim. Anyone "offended" by this, please provide lots of counter examples or an argument that most startups in India re doing very cutting edge work)

"great engineers in India should be able to telecommute for the startups advertised here."

Umm what is wrong with this opinion? Ecological footprints? I wasn't thinking of ecology. Frankly I don't care. In my ideal wold anyone would be able to work for any company, irrespective of nationality without wrestling with arcane visa regulations and so on. telecommuting is the only way I know for this to happen.

"Also, the wishlist you have given for Indian startups does exist. You just need to look for it in the right places."

Why don't you give me specific examples of such startups? Anyone can make vague generalizations like "look for it i the right places" . What are "the right places"? Give me some concrete examples.

"If you are really looking to join an Indian startup as a part of the founding team- reach out to them and let them know what you can offer instead of waiting for them to add a job listing here"

Where did I say I am looking for a startup to join? I have enough work (the non outsourced, technically ultra sophisticated kind ;-)) for years.

[niyazpk]

The growth of the IT industry in India was very fast. It did not grow organically like it did in the US. Most of the work in India is outsourced work and this means that the Indian IT industry grows as fast the IT industries in the outsourcing countries. This inorganic growth is showing its ugly faces now.

A big issue I see frequently is that smart people do not have the opportunity to grow in India. This cannot be blamed on the system though. If you are smart, you ought to find other smart people and hang out with them. It is through sharing we grow and it was how the hacker community in the silicon valley and other similar hubs developed.

I think that the hackers in India should come together to form a platform from where they can start sharing ideas and innovate. Waiting for the other 99.9% of the so called IT industry to correct itself and follow the path of innovation and solve real hard problems is not worth at all.

If you are smart person or a hacker in India, (you are if you are reading this) you ought to make up your mind, find like-minded people and start engineering good systems. That is how every thing good in this world started.

[salvadors]

Directi are doing some very interesting things. They're not VC funded, but that's because they've been profitable from day one. They've also started recruiting from outside India.

[ajju]

I say this with some trepidation since I am not familiar with Directi first hand, but having seen their job ads once too often now, I would like to know what exactly are the "interesting things" they are doing?

Based on their products page (http://directi.com/products/) Other than one "pre launch" product that will do instant messaging and free email, their entire business seems to be built around "landing pages" for domain parking companies.

[startupdude]

Directi's recruitment process is the crappiest, they need people to use codechef to start the process which is a biggest buggy system and no admin replies on the forum.

[gvb]

I up-voted you and encourage others to do the same. Thank you and plinkplonk for a very interesting and thought provoking discussion. I did not see your original posting, but your edited version is excellent as well as the follow up discussion with plinkplonk.

I especially appreciate both of you pulling back from the brink of a /. "discussion" by re-engaging with facts and rational discussion.

[nose]

Have you taken a look at zoho.com

[startupdude]

Is zoho hiring?