[plinkplonk]

"It doesn't really matter if you are Indian or not. Your argument should stand for you, not for the country you belong to"

Oh I completely agree. I was just wondering if you thought I was some Non Indian "bashing" Indians. Good to know you are not.

"(1) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't startups. I don't see how that case is special to India.

(2) Most companies in the world (including US) aren't doing technically sophisticated things. I don't see how that case is special to India."

First adressing the point you make above, I did follow up with a paragraph (in the OP) on how Indian companies are mostly outsourcing based or ODC's attempting to do low quality work their parent organizations shift to India. In other words I am making a direct Causal link between the fact that most compoanies in India do bodyshopping/outsourcing to why great enginers find working here frustrating.I've edited the order of paragraphs to represent that emphasis if it weren't clear.

You were the one who chose that sentence as specifically "offensive". Pointing out that this isn't specific to India isn't the same as being "offended".

If you are saying that there are companies, especially startups in India that match the technological sophistication of say Facebook or Google, I'd love to hear specific cases. I hold my opinions very loosely and am quite willing to be corrected/

That said, "Even if data shows otherwise, it is unfair to put a qualifier "by and large" and then start the bashing. That is a safety device you have adopted."

I am not "bashng" anyone. I don't need a "safety device". What I wrote is what I genuinely believe. I am not a politician trying to convince anyone to think as I do!

This is a completely wrong argument. What "the data shows" is what is important. Instead of trying to guess my intent ("bashing" , "offending" and so on, without much to base these judgments on), why don't you counter my argument?

My argument is that outsourcing companies are very common and sophisticated startups are very very rare (practically no existent and less than say about 15 or so in number at most) in India and consequently there isn't a large market for really good engineers, who mostly migrate to the USA.

If you believe I am wrong,here is a challenge for you. why don't you name some Indian startups (say 10 would do) which are (a) funded (b) doing technologically sophisticated software? That way all of us benefit.

[jacquesm]

Glusterfs comes to mind. Some of the code from that project is simply way out of the ballpark. Check the 'continuation across network' macro in one of the C header files, if you don't want to take my word for it.

It's more sophisticated than anything else that I've seen in a long long time.

The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule. And weasel words ('the safety device') are not needed, you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow.

The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things. I'd hazard such a statement about my own country, which is a LOT smaller than India.

The outsourcing wave has put lots of money into the Indian economy, and just like what happened in Japan after drudgework and copying comes a wave of innovation. You can't stop that cycle. India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are).

Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years, they have one headstart over everybody else, ramen profitable there means hosting + $500 / month.

[plinkplonk]

@jacquesm

Strange that you use GlusterFS as an example.Yes they are technically sophisticated but then I know the CTO of ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS), Anand Babu, personally and he is a good friend. Some of the people who wrote the core code are Indians (including Anand) who live in the United States.

Do they have an office in Bangalore? Sure they do. This is the "ODC" model I referred to, where development is done in India because it is cheaper.

With that disposed of,

"The stereotypes you are referring to exist but they are not the one and only rule."

(a) I didn't refer to any "stereortypes" (b) I never claimed this was the "one and only" rule.

"you could simply take your own medicine and do your research yourself, then eat some crow."

Sure! I'll be glad to when any of my claims is refuted.

meanwhile, may I suggest you do the same for using GlusterFS as an example of an Indian startup? ;-).

ZResearch (the company offering commercial support for GlusterFS) is very much an American company which has some Indians among its founding members. It was founded in the United States by people who were living there at the time. If any startup having an Indian amongst its founders is an "Indian startup" then sure ZR is "Indian". The decision makers (irrespective of ethnicity) all live in the USA and the core of the code is written in the USA == "American Company" to me whether they have an office in India or not. I suspect this is where we differ.

I am confused. you say

"The Indian software landscape is too large and too diverse to make such sweeping generalizations by one person with a possibly limited view of things."

and then

"India is not doomed to be an outsourcing venue for ever, they'll be a force to reckon with (and in fact, already are).

Expect a large wave of startups from the region in the next 5 years,"

Isn't the latter an example of the former? In this case the "one person making generalizations" (about the future in tis case) being you. Nothing wrong with that of course. There are always exceptions to almost any "rule" one can think of.

Have you lived or worked in India? How would you know what the "Indian software landscape" looks like? What facts support your contention that list is very "diverse"?

I agree that in the future technically sophisticated startups may emerge out of India. In the present such startups are VERY rare.

One example of such a startup is "guruji.com" - an Indian search company (I know people who work there). They don't have much traction yet but they do some interesting work . I know a couple of unfunded startups trying to do interesting things.

All this doesn't change the fact that the Indian softare industry is largely about outsourcing and most Indian startups largely do not try to do technically sophisticated things. THIS was my contention not "there isn't a single technically sosphisticated startup in India"

I maintain there is nothing "offensive" about that idea. it is just the truth. I am surprised people get "offended".

If I had ever said "India is doomed to always be an outsourcing destination", I can see how it could offend. Since I never claimed anything like that, (vs people randomly getting "offended" but offering no real counter examples) I don't feel the need to defend an obvious strawman.

As to "weasel words" I never knew "most" was a weasel word ;-). I look forward to the day when we all speak in absolutes ;-).

OK that said, this argument is now degenerating (indentation depth is a good metric) and so I'll withdraw. (My email is available in my profile for those who would like to take this offline)

Anyone reading this please list any great Indian startups you know who are looking for great engineers. This would be very helpful.

[jacquesm]

I'm in contact with people that are like Zresearch what I call 'thin start ups', companies that have a front office in the US for funding and representation issues, and a back office in India where all the development takes place.

There are very good business reasons for setting things up this way.

Still, I see GlusterFS as an Indian start-up, not an American one. It is run by Indians, from the top to the bottom and everywhere in between.

To get funding and to be able to access the American market you have to have an office - preferably your titular main office - there. In this respect they are not different from Logitech, another 'American' company (never mind that they really are Swiss).

As for your confusion re my statement about a limited view, yes, that's a generalization too, but it's a conversational trick to put those two at the same level.

To say that you do know the Indian software industry at that level is an absolute statement that I think you can not make with any confidence.

To say that you can't know the whole landscape simply because of its size is one I can make with confidence simply because you'd have to be omniscient in order to be able to do so.

India is going through much the same phase as were Japan was when they were 'used' to produce electronics for the United States in the 60's of the last century. The amount of know-how that is being amassed there and the amount of money invested will sooner or later result in a tech boom.

The fact that GlusterFS is an Indian (not an American) company to me is some proof that we are underway in this, and I know of another 50 or so companies that follow this same model. Just like Logitech is Swiss they're as Indian as can be, even though for the outside world they'll do everything they can to present a different face. That's simply good business and I don't begrudge them for it.

Weasel words : qualifying your statements in such a way that you can twist their meaning later by pointing at your qualifiers.

As for my view of the Indian software scene I have seriously considered moving to India in order to start a new company there but for logistical reasons have decided to stay in the Netherlands for the time being, I have a son in school here and I don't want him to pay part of the price of my business adventures.

In the running up to that decision I did a very thorough survey of the Indian IT landscape and I was absolutely amazed at how much quality software comes out of India and how thin the 'we're a us company' veneer sometimes is.

It's happening, it's happening now and if you are not a part of it then get moving, you have an amazing edge over the rest of the world.

There are two countries right now where the chances of making it big as a hacker/ceo are substantially higher than in the rest of the world, the first is India, the second - and still to a lesser extent but I'm not sure how long that will last - is China.

Say hi to Anand from me btw :)

Regarding your friends with unfunded startups, drop me a line please. (email in my 'about' bit).

[zaph0d]

Anand Babu lives in the US, but Anand Avati (and others) work out of BLR. I have known them for quite some time and I think Avati is one of the best Engineers I have met in my life.

The kind of work they do is also awesome. I don't see ZR as an American company outsourcing easy work to India.

[plinkplonk]

"Anand Babu lives in the US,"

And that is what I said.

"I have known them for quite some time and I think Avati is one of the best Engineers I have met in my life."

I don't know Mr.Avati. I will gladly take your word for it.

" I don't see ZR as an American company outsourcing easy work to India."

This is a matter of perception. We don't have to agree completely to respect each others' opinion. With respect to ZR in particular (vs the Indian software industry in general) I only claim that ZR is an American company with an Indian office. No more. I am well aware of the talent level of AB and his colleagues.

The difference in perception between Jacques and me is on whether ZR is an American company or an Indian startup. I respect his opinion while sticking to mine. And ZR doesn't invalidate the point I made anyway (which was that ZR is an exception, not the rule.)

[zaph0d]

I would also like to state that I agree with you on most points. I am an Indian, trying to do a startup in India.