[emanuer]

My wife is Japanese and through her I cam to a realization about this very topic.

My hypothesis is: Japanese do not accept anything less than perfection. The accompanying motto seems: "If you cannot archive perfection, don’t even bother starting.“

To illustrate my point; My wife might ask me to purchase something for her. Whenever I could not get the specific product she asked for, I just bought something comparable. At home she would be disappointed to her core, to the point where she considered the possibility that my intentions where nefarious. Every time this happened I was shocked. Why would I try to bring her harm by not buying the exact same thing, but something comparable? Now I was convinced that her thought-process is rather unique. Yet, to my surprise, almost every Japanese person who I befriended on a deeper level behaved the same way.

To me it seems for Japanese people there is an crucial "line of competency". An average Gaijin (non-Japanese) is seen as incompetent to act according to Japanese customs (rightfully so). Almost everything a Gaijin does, even if it is rather obnoxious, is not judged by Japanese, but accepted as: „Well..., different culture, different habits."

When they allow you in their circle, befriend you, you are seen as to cross the „line of competency“ and your actions will be judged by higher standards.

Now imagine you grew up in a society where everything you do is expected to be done perfectly. And a consequence of not doing something perfect is bringing shame to you and those around you (Japan is a shame based culture, so that is extremely bad). You will not consider starting a task unless you have a very high chance of archiving mastery. If you do a task, you are not perfect in, you better hide it.

Another example: A friend of mine visited me in Japan and quite frequently asked people for directions. To his awe every single one of them went out of their way to help him. People walked for very long distances with him, making 100% certain that he will get to an ATM. In their mind, drawing on a map just did not suffice. They would walk with him all across Shinjuku station (the busiest station on the planet) making sure he will find the right train. To him these were just examples of nice people in Japan. I believe he, unknowingly, tasked these poor people with unreasonably big requests. When asking for the nearest ATM these Japanese did not consider the possibility of pointing in a direction, as this would have left too much room for error. Anything less than walking with him would have brought shame to them. Actually when you ask directions and they „just“ point (it happens) look at their faces. Often thy turn away from you in shame. Or their faces will freeze as if they just did something appalling.

Imagine having a country of 129 million perfectionists. How would the society be run? Trains would always be perfectly on time. Food would always look as delicious as in the ads and taste like you hope it would. People would be very stressed committing to anything they have not done 100 times before. People would feel the constant pressure to live up to insane expectations and if they could not hold up to them, they would be anxious to leave their houses (otaku). — If you are not familiar with the Japanese culture, this is exactly like it is in Japan.

A last point to support the article, I was in Rome and an Italien friend brought me to „the best pizzeria in Italy“. I must say, it was a truly delicious pizza. 3 Days later I was in Osaka and went with a Japanese friend to a „very good “ pizza place. Every single slice of pizza I ate there was pure perfection. It blew the „best pizzeria in Italy“ out of the water. The pizzeria in the Namba Parks is run by Japanese who studied in Italy.

[hyp0]

I wonder how this meshes with Japanese innovation and creativity - which require risks, mistakes, trial-and-error?

Clayton Christensen on Sony's founder: http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/1013/082_2.html

  ...the original battery-powered pocket transistor radio, launched in 1955, and
  the first portable solid-state black-and-white television, in 1960. Plus:
   videocassette players, portable video recorders, the now-ubiquitous Walkman and
  3.5-inch floppy disk drives, launched in 1980.

  How did Sony find these foothold applications? Morita and a trusted group of
  about five associates observed and questioned what people really were trying
  to get done. They looked for ways that miniaturized, solid-state electronics
  might help a population of less skilled and less affluent people to accomplish,
  more conveniently and at less expense, the jobs they were already trying to get
  done through awkward, unsatisfactory means.

There's other innovations, such as Honda inventing the trail bike (there were previously only road motorcycles).

As an example of creativity, there's Hayao Miyazaki. While he is a perfectionist, there must be some tolerance for experiment, exploration, discovery - else there can be no original creation.

[joshuak]

Everyone misses the point. Japanese are innovating, but the ingrained American values make most of us blind to the Japanese approach to innovation.

Japanese aren't copying they are embracing an idea, comprehending it, and improving it. They could be inspired by anything, like any of us, but there has been much to be inspired by in the US over the last 50 some years. We all do this, but while americans focus on price per unit, Japanese focus on quality.

As I've mentioned elsewhere the subtle but powerful core difference between Japanese and Americans (quality vs quantity) form the foundation of two different emergent systems. Although it sounds simple it is a profound difference at scale.

This is why Japanese are very innovative, but most americans simply don't see it. Japanese had broadcast HD in the early 90s, and phones that could play TV 6 years before the iPhone.

[randomflavor]

It is also funny to the original that asked if japanese can essentially do "Lean".

Umm, Lean is just a copy of the Toyota Way that has been infected with american/euro values.

Constant improvement is Japanese. Americans use it to drive the cost low in order to maximize profits, japanese use it to maximize quality in order to maximize profits.

[hyp0]

That's a mischaracterisation of my comment. Toyota is about improvement/perfecting (Deming's "quality", Six Sigma).

The examples I gave are about new product categories. To repeat one of them: before Sony, there was no transistor radio. They created not just one, but several new product categories - twelve, by Christensen's count. (Unfortunately, Sony didn't create any new product categories without the founder. e.g. the playstation was a great product, but consoles were an established product category.)

That is, it's not the getting better at something, but the creation of something new to get better at (hence Christensen's interest, as the coiner of disruptive innovation).

[ BTW: I can't help but think that the post-war period in Japan somehow enabled this creation of new product categories. ]

[1stop]

Erm... the japanese copied the germans.

I mean when someone says "What is the highest quality car?" - no one says "[Toyota|Mazda|Honda|Izuzu]"... though they might say one of those if you ask about the 'cheapest'... which is counter to your point.

[randomflavor]

I'm not talking about build quality perse - its the process of removing constraints to the end product to maximize efficiency while maintaining or improving quality. German cars are fantastic I agree. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way

[1stop]

You are describing TOC (Theory of Constraints)[0], which predates "The Toyota Way"/"Toyota Production Systems" by ~20 years. It is a distinctly american philosophy that Toyota imported and are a great example of their implementation (As are BMW, VW, and Mercedes).

I think toyota are unique in how they incorporate their suppliers into their own processes, basically applying TOC beyond the walls of their own factory, which as far as I'm aware is/was quite innovative.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_constraints

[Retric]

Japan was known for making cheap low quality products much like China is now. It's only relatively recently that they moved up the quality ladder. Which suggests there culture has less to do with perfection than you might think.

If anything it's the strong Yen which is forcing their hand. They can't make a profit importing materials and making cheap products without focusing on automation.

[doctorstupid]

They made cheap products because they were asked to, because back then Japan had cheap labor. These products weren't considered fit for domestic consumption (only foreigners would want that junk), and their own standards of material goods were always high. I'm sure that something similar could be said for the Chinese.

[comicjk]

In my experience, Chinese society is actually much more "American" than Japanese is. Both China and America are fine with doing a half-assed job if it works, and self-assured about effective kludges in a way that Japan is not even about near-perfection. And of course, both are hustling and proud and know they're the center of the world.

[mahranch]

> It's only relatively recently that they moved up the quality ladder.

Depends on what you mean by "recent". In my mind, recent means within ~10 years. However, Japan started turning things around in the late 80s. We're approaching the 30 year mark of high quality Japanese products and, to me, that's no longer considered recent.

> They can't make a profit importing materials and making cheap products without focusing on automation.

But the article is wider in scope than just manufacturing, it's about the entire culture. It's everything from manga/anime to whiskey, Music (Ever hear of Babymetal? Now that's innovation), Kobe beef, to even porn. Those things aren't produced on an assembly line.

[coldtea]

>Japan was known for making cheap low quality products much like China is now. It's only relatively recently that they moved up the quality ladder.

Perhaps you mean the cheap radios, cameras, vehicles etc of post-war Japan. Those were made to rebuild their economy, and from a starting point of almost great desolation.

Go back a few decades from WWII, and you'll find out that for centuries before Japan made extremely high quality products, from swords and teapots, to furniture and jewelry.

To the point that European and American artifacts of the same type and same era look like the Dell Ditty compared to the iPod Touch.

[delackner]

It takes some effort to recover quality standards after an entire country's industry and economy have been reduced to burning rubble.

[kashkhan]

I have used plenty of japanese cars and japanese electronics to know that the japanese are NOT perfectionists in general. Fastidious workers yes, but that don't make perfection.

[ramchip]

Being a perfectionist doesn't mean you create something perfect. It means feeling displeased when you don't reach a very high standard.

[delackner]

well said and i completely agree. That said, the story of the hamburger maker is instructive. While it is true that many people in Japan practically lose their minds with the stress of contemplating perfection or failing to achieve perfection, this is the negative aspect of the mindset. The positive version, the version that drove that hamburger guy to success, is that anything you put your mind to doing, you should do with the intention of aiming for perfection. that may require years of practice and iterative improvement, but ANY task you decide to do is not worth doing half assed. I have seen people working in fast food serving water the best way it possibly could be done. They were not being paid extra for it, there is no tipping. It just reflects an inner pride of excellence.

That said, I think many people or even most of society misses that angle, and get cought up in the stressful negative side of perfection, leading to various horrible outcomes.

[joyeuse6701]

This, started doing Kendo for a little bit, at first it's fine, you haven't as they say, crossed the line of competency. Once you're allowed the armor, everything changes, the line is crossed, and you most definitely are held to hire standards. The shaming, perfecting and goal of mastery is all there as you say.

[rasur]

In that spirit; 'higher standards' not 'hire standards' ;)

[1stop]

I think this is just a massive over generalisation.

Sure so you have an example of perfect pizza.

How about WWII... that didn't really go perfectly for them? Or their economy being a complete shambles ever since. Or how about their Nuclear plants, or their response to failed nuclear plants. Selection bias is a pretty powerful beast, "All japanese are perfectionists, look at the pizza" isn't a compelling argument.

It's pretty clear Japan, just like everyone else, screw things up, and are slack/lazy, etc. There are not 129 million perfectionists... just 129 million people living out there lives in a modern developed economy with a fetish for foreign culture.

[emanuer]

Yes you are right, this is massive over generalization, and I am rather unhappy with my wording, unfortunately I can not edit my comment anymore. In my culture these almost „polemical statements“ are rather accepted and interpreted differently. I found especially english speaking people have a very hard time understanding my intentions. I should have known better.

Obviously there are not 129 million perfectionists, that was particularly misleading.

However I would claim that Japanese are more likely to favor and reward perfectionism than any other culture I experienced. I am only talking about a trend I may have observed.

[1stop]

As I implied in another thread. Germans seems pretty good at the 'perfection' side of things in their culture.

Which given Japan and Germany's history makes me believe the mindset of 'perfection' or continuous improvement/innovation comes from germany, rather than Japan.

disclaimer: I'm neither German, nor Japanese ;)

[calinet6]

Much of it actually came from W. Edwards Deming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming), who taught it to the Japanese after World War II. The top prize for quality in Japan carries his name.

He was American; we've forgotten (or never learned), but they took it to an extreme.

[doctorstupid]

I wouldn't say he gave them perfection, but rather that he tought some companies how to achieve the perfection they already desired from mass manufactured goods.

[calinet6]

Yes, the How was the disconnect. It still is.

[emanuer]

Oh, I am Austrian (culturally very close to Germany) and I worked in a German company in Tokyo. I am not alone with my opinion, that Japanese are taking perfectionism to a whole new level, actually harming productivity.

[jessriedel]

You're off base. emanuer is talking about a culture/mindset of perfectionism. He didn't say the Japanese were perfect.

[1stop]

I think that is just called arrogance (thinking you are perfect, when you are, in fact, not).

[Panoramix]

I don't know what you are talking about with this whole tangent. All I gather is you have something against Japan that precludes discussion about it.

[1stop]

Not at all. I was responding to the over generalisation that "Japanese are perfect" (to paraphrase).

The commenter has since pointed out his intent further, but my core point is, the traits people are saying are Japanese seem to stem from distinctly western sources (Demming, and Germany both being mentions).

But this whole idea Japan are 'perfectionists' is just racial stereotypes. The only thing Japanese people are (in general) is Japanese.

[Panoramix]

Just to make it clear: perfect and perfectionist are very, very different things. You cannot paraphrase one into the other at all.

In order to asses whether it's an stereotype or not, we have to set up some kind of measure of perfectionism. Otherwise we have to rely on anecdotes. My anecdotes, having lived in Germany and very briefly in Japan, match that of the original post: I was continuously baffled with the attention to detail displayed everywhere in Tokyo. It's just in a whole different level. And that of course does not make them perfect (what does that even mean?). Whether this attitude historically stems from Europe, is a second order tangent.

Your argument seems to be: Japanese are not particularly perfectionist (no more than Colombians, Danish, Turkish for example). But if they were, it's because they took it from the Germans. I found this confusing.

[Wohui]

It's hard not to have a crush on the japanese when you can relate to all this. I recently walked a man to his destination for 10-15 mins, because giving directions / pointing on his map "left too much room for error" as you concisely put it. All so I didn't fail as some anonymous directions-giver. It's just something you expect to get right.

But I don't desire 'perfection' in anything, I simply have standards that don't degrade. Think of TV talent shows, and the horrible people you get to see during the auditions. These people lost their standards somewhere along the line.

[bpyne]

I have to admit to a huge amount of respect for the Japanese culture - problems not withstanding. Its ability to distill "essence", as exemplified in the article, and its huge respect for craftsmanship just leave me in awe.

[adrianm]

Friendly advice: you should think twice before posting long comments where you systematically examine racial generalizations (and dare I say it: stereotypes!) you find to be anecdotally valid.

It's this sort of "reasoning by anecdote" that, while convincing to the individuals relating them, can easily mislead others into believing your conclusions are rational.

[bigtones]

I enjoyed reading his comment and commentary on life as he saw it in Japan. Don't admonish the poster because you think his audience (we) might be idiots.

[emanuer]

Thank you for your advice, I fully agree. I cannot edit my comment anymore, so I actually think about just deleting it.

Edit: I am surprised to find; I mistakenly assumed I have the ability to delete my comments. That seems new...

[pasbesoin]

I enjoyed your comment, as I have enjoyed many comments here on HN that quite thoughtfully and often eloquently take the time to provide a personal context and, yes, anecdote, to a more generally reported circumstance.

Don't worry about it. I -- for one ;-) -- think your comment was appropriate and useful, in this context.

(For example, it provides me with some additional insight to my own occasional interactions with Japanese culture. Most useful, to me.)

Nor do I mean to be overly critical of the critiquing response. Yes, we do need to be aware of anecdote versus corroborated fact. But, as one other respondent has commented, we make some assumption that those on HN can judge this for themselves.

--

This comment meant in good spirit, all around. And yes, it's just my opinion.

[josephagoss]

Yeah after a while the comments become immortal.

It's a pest when you post something only to realise a little while later that perhaps it should have been written differently or not written at all.

Happens to me all the time.

[delackner]

Total disagreement with your premise. Having experienced a place and a culture, it is perfectly reasonable to gain a sense of the uniquely different cultural attitudes and priorities that are prevalent in a society. Trying to relate such impressions to someone who has not been seeing for ten years with the same eyes, inevitably we choose anecdotal stories to illustrate the broad impression it conveys, not just to say 'this one time i saw something and this is my whole dataset'.

[adrianm]

You claim to disagree with my premise, but you did not address the premise of my statement.

I did not say it was unreasonable to "gain a sense of the uniquely different cultural attitudes and priorities that are prevalent in a society".

Based on your analysis, I think you have misinterpreted both the intent and premise of my comment.

What I actually said was precisely what I did say: that you should not be quick to publicly espouse these generalizations that you have anecdotally observed. To a general audience of people who do not know you, the words that you write on here are the only basis we have on which to understand you as a person, short of getting to know you personally.

Perhaps you have never been on the receiving end of a racial stereotype or generalization, even an "innocent" one. Even if the comments are not made with malicious intent, and believe me I know the OP had absolutely no malicious intent at all, stereotypes can and do make some people uncomfortable to hear.

Why is that? Well, there are lots of reasons. If for nothing else, it makes the member of the group in question the "Other". If only for a brief moment in time the individual ceases to exist; their racial characteristics are being now being discussed, rationalized, and analyzed by the others in the room.

I really just wanted to give my honest advice to a nice guy (the OP), that it would be wise to avoid allowing this sort of discussion be associated with him as a person, unintentionally immortalized by the internet.

[delackner]

I understand your suggestion and your point is well meaning, but you are saying no one should ever write downfor others to read, their own experiences or impressions, of things they have seen. In your original comment and this reply you repeatedly use the word "race" or "racial" but the article is about a culture and the comment you are so against is someone commenting on their experience living in that culture. would you have all stories about a particular place be written only by its inhabitants? i think you would find there are precious few, because we do not and cannot see the culturally unique attitudes and behaviors that so differeniate where we are raised from all other places, precisely because everything seems just so mundane and normal with no frame of outside reference.

If we all shy away from discussing the interesting and unique different perspectives of different cultural and social norms and objectives, we lose the opportunity to be inspired by one another.

I really dont care if someone later in the future discovers that i said i had an impression of something i saw in a society, and i dont think people need to be shielded from hearing what outsiders think of their society.

As for your suggestion that i have probably not been on the receiving end of such observations, as a non-japanese living in a country that has almost no foreigners percentage-wise, yes, i am aware of what it is like to be on the receiving end of blanket generalizations about "americans" "foreigners" "californians" and other groups, usually by people who have never travelled more than a few km by train from their home town. That kind of empty and idiotic thinking has nothing whatsoever to do with someone simply describing what they have seen with their own personal experience in a foreign land.

[coldtea]

There is such a thing as culture, and different cultures have different characteristics and values. This is well known to ethnologics and social scientists, and has been studied extensively.

Those are not "racial generalizations" (and the fact that the Japanese are asian has little to do with that, it could have as easily been about differences between French and German attitudes).

Of course you can find Japanese who are totally sloppy and against the description given above. But you wouldn't find a Japanese culture where sloppiness is OK, and shame is not important.

Outliers exists everywhere -- but the importance of observation is to find larger patterns and be able to summarily understand your subject. Science starts with labelling things -- and it's perfectly rational.

And of course, observations and conclusions can be corrected as more data arrive.

[mathattack]

Thanks for sharing. Japanese fanaticism over other cultures fascinates me. It's copying but with a uniquely Japanese undertone. It doesn't fit the easy sound bites of American generalization.

[sosborn]

Not to be a dick, but as someone who lived and worked in Japan for about 10 years your hypothesis is totally wrong.

The Japanese do many things well, but if you ever take a look at the software they produce you will realize very quickly that "perfection" is nowhere to be found and there are many industries where this is true.

I know the pizza place you are referring to in Namba Parks. The pizza is indeed incredible. However, how much of that is simply an alignment of my sense of taste? I know people who would eat that pizza and feel like it was garbage. A quick look at all of the varieties of crust and the holy wars that ensue when discussing them lends credence to this possibility.

[coldtea]

>The pizza is indeed incredible. However, how much of that is simply an alignment of my sense of taste?

Little I'd say. Judging cooking is not just about "taste". Even if some people don't like some dish, quality fresh ingredients and proper preparation are not debatable for example.

So, that some people might hate that pizza and love Domino's, or prefer some other kind of crust, doesn't mean much with regards to the quality of the restaurant. Other stuff matters.

[seanmcdirmid]

The naan in Japan is also much better than the naan in India.