[chipmunkninja]

Look, we can get one thing clear here: "Communist China" is not some dark gulag where people are beaten while walking down the street for having vaguely pro-democracy thoughts or something.

Indeed, it's increasingly not accurate to call China a communist state any more. Communism is about collectivism, planned economic policies, and egalitarianism. China began abandoning these policies nearly immediately after the death of Chairman Mao in 1976. Granted, there are still warehouses full of grain and pork, and only the government can officially "own" land, but the reality at street level is that it's a pretty thriving capitalist state with 100 year leases on land, increasing dismantling of state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and a vibrant mercantilism I've not seen anywhere else in the world.

What China is, though, is an autocratic state with a single party central government that maintains tight control over the press. Look closer, however, and it exercises the tight control over a few key topics with which most Westerners are familiar (and porn - porn is bad). If you are a reporter, then these controls can be frustrating, if not downright aggravating, but otherwise, life here is pretty relaxed and open.

The reality on the street? The locals engage in vibrant discussions and arguments about Taiwan, Tibet, or whatever online on a daily basis. Sometimes they use encoded keywords to keep the noise level down, but they talk about it all the time. What the government really cares about is people organising - that is verboten. I've tried to avoid talking about all these "sensitive" subjects in my years here in China (largely because politics stresses me out), and I am constantly approached by locals who want talk about it and give me their opinions.

The Great Firewall isn't nearly as big of a deal as you'd think either. No Twitter? Facebook? Livejournal? Guess what? The locals weren't using it anyway (not in appreciable numbers). They were (are) using local Chinese equivalents, which are far better at catering to their needs and desires. I don't know a single foreigner who hasn't found a way around the firewall to use Twitter on a daily basis either.

So, to summarize: China is an autocratic state, it has some definite problems with various values and things that many Westerners take for granted as important, but to just sit on the sidelines saying "Boo, China" isn't going to change a thing. China will gradually change by engaging with them and by working to move forward with them. Indeed, by not coming here to visit and or spend a bit of time, you're denying yourself experiencing one of the more vibrant and fascinating places on earth.

[tjmc]

No need to tell the head of Rio Tinto in China about dark gulags. He's been under arrest without charge for several weeks now for allegedly stealing "state secrets" that allowed Rio Tinto to negotiate good prices for iron ore from China's steel mills.

Yesterday the Chinese authorities said Rio's "spying" had cost the country $102 billion over 6 years. Only problem with that story is that Rio's total worldwide iron ore revenues for the last 6 years was $40.75 billion. More here: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/The-real-...

So by all means do business in China - just don't be too successful. Because your competitive negotiation with a state run business might just turn into spying on "state secrets". The Chinese government has some growing up to do.

[sho]

Also no need to tell the head of Rio Tinto about bribery, corruption, theft of state resources, perversion of justice and even murder - his company has been implicated in all these and more at numerous sites around the world. Their involvement in the Grasberg mine in Papua has been particularly egregious.

I don't have many good things to say about the Chinese govt, but Rio Tinto is an absolutely awful company and it would not surprise me if they had tried their dirty tricks one too many times and been caught trying to bribe or blackmail officials.

Let's wait until the facts come out in this case.

[tjmc]

Not a big fan of Rio either, but does simply working for a bad company justify imprisonment of the local management without charge? The facts should come out before arrests are made, not after.

[sho]

It doesn't justify it, of course, but it does set the scene, as in it's quite likely there's been bad behaviour of some type. If we're going to be drawing conclusions about China's intentions, it behooves us to consider all the relevant information.

These mega-corps always work within the letter of the law, but not the spirit. They can wreak horrendous damage, taking actions in obvious bad faith, and yet get off scot-free because they've legally dotted every "i". Well, it would not surprise me if some part of Officialdom there is really pissed off at Rio for something they've done, can't actually hang anything specific on them, so is just holding them without charge for a while to punish them. That is also within the letter of the law, but not the spirit.

China could be sending a message here - "you play dirty, we'll play dirty". Anyway, just a theory and probably not a good one, but I hope it demonstrates that Rio's unclean hands are relevant to any discussion of the matter.

Simply stating "be too successful in China and this is what happens!" is unlikely to be the whole story.

[sho]

I'd like to follow this up with the information that Hu has now been formally charged:

http://www.businessday.com.au/business/rio-spy-case-stern-hu...

As expected, the charges are commercial bribery and obtaining "commercial secrets of China's steel and iron industry through improper means" in violation of "the country's Criminal Law".

I am not trying to whitewash China here, but I doubt this case is all that unreasonable, and I for one am hardly less confident about business dealings in China because of it.

[justlearning]

apologies, but can I call b.s. on that?

"No Twitter? Facebook? Livejournal? Guess what? The locals weren't using it anyway (not in appreciable numbers)"

appreciable numbers or not - how important are they in interaction with the outside world without mediation of the state. (eg: sichuan earthquake - twitter/youtube played an important role in revealing to the 'outside world' the live events rather than orchestrated statements that usually come from the govt. after a week.)

More about the dark gulag or not: It is well known how people in prisons make many of the items that land up on a 'westerner's desk' (eg: promotion items like key chains for coke) - and yes the prisoner is paid for what he works - an apple a week. More examples to cite - the Iphone prototype kid who killed himself? Let's speculate this iphone prototype being developed in another country - say US or even India. That kid did no harakiri. I will rest the case for the conspiracy theorists.

Do you know of the efforts the govt. takes to "erase" the memories of the 1989. The only chinese youth that have 'heard' of this event are the ones that live abroad.

Here's what I would like to hear about - "real" entrepreneurs from China. real -> first generation with no connections to the military or the govt. Everyone we know and hear about are the from the govt. or sons of govt. officials (like the rich russians)

We have few Canadian Chinese here - why don't they speak?

"Indeed, by not coming here to visit and or spend a bit of time, you're denying yourself experiencing one of the more vibrant and fascinating places on earth." - Agree with you.

PS: for context - I am writing this from a chinese special area zone,not china. I am not a citizen.

[plinkplonk]

" "Communist China" is not some dark gulag where people are beaten while walking down the street for having vaguely pro-democracy thoughts or something."

No it is just a dark gulag where people are arrested and then beaten for expressing or acting on vaguely pro-democracy thoughts.

People still disappear in China into "re education camps" and are never seen again and are beaten, tortured and killed. Other than that, sure, it is "just" "an autocratic state, it has some definite problems"

The govt is a repressive dictatorship with a horrific human rights record. The fact that outsiders can make money there, while they can't (today) in say, North Korea, doesn't change the essential nature of the beast. Dictatorships can be great places for non citizens who are treated well and can always leave if they want to. Except that the jews/communists/gypsies/homosexuals etc were killed in their millions, Nazi Germany was a great place to live and work in(See IBM and the Holocaust), as long as you didn't challenge the gang of thugs ruling the country.

[wyw]

"Communist China" is not some dark gulag where people are beaten while walking down the street for having vaguely pro-democracy thoughts or something.

Correct. They're usually dragged into an alleyway first.

[IsaacL]

YES. This needs to be said more and more; to many in the West believe in the stereotyped image of China in the media, which prevents making any useful criticism of the countries actual problems. People like you who say otherwise tend to get replies like the ones above me who assume that you've swallowed the state propoganda.

I should add that I have lived (and am writing this) in China. It's clear that many of the "OMG Communists!" posters have not been to he country.

[plinkplonk]

"I should add that I have lived (and am writing this) in China."

Are you a Chinese citizen?