[dotBen]

HN'ers asking why this isn't a cell phone app take note - this exemplifies why we (geeks) don't make good use cases for consumer tech and we should always be careful looking to our own habits and values when in a Product Development role.

We're rarely the target customer and rarely behave like "average Joe". We're naturally resistant to superfluous redundancy ("My phone can already snap a barcode, I don't need a separate device") when consumers don't even see the duplication let alone the issue. They don't separate devices (or even apps) has having layers of similarity and just see things for their end functionality.

My mother would see a phone and apps as completely separate functionality to a physical device like this. She probably would have the Amazon Fresh scanner, the (theoretical) Google Shopping Express scanner and the (also theoretical) Whole Foods scanner and wouldn't even consider the duplication, let alone be frustrated by it. She doesn't care about the potential for an "open standard"/"common standard".

She also has an AppleTV and a ChromeCast connected to the same smart-TV that also has native apps within it (she mostly uses the native apps). Again, she sees no issue with that and might even buy an Amazon FireTV if she felt it was more compelling for one use.

Ultimately we shouldn't assume consumers value convergence, especially when it creates ever increasing complexity in user experience (eg opening an app to snap a barcode vs pressing a single button on an Amazon Fresh scanner)

ADDED: If you don't have parents that also work in tech, go visit them and just watch them use technology without prompting. Ask them about their experiences, their frustrations, their decisions behind purchasing specific equipment and downloading particular apps. It's very insightful.

[mrxd]

Agreed. Other advantages:

A dedicated device means everyone in the household can use it without the friction of having to help everyone find the app and register with the same account.

People without phones (like kids) can use it.

It's designed to sit on the kitchen counter or hooked on to something. That physical presence reminds you to use it when you're in the kitchen, where an app buried on the last page of the home screen is easy to forget.

The camera-based barcode scanners like the one built into the Amazon mobile app are significantly more difficult to use than laser scanners. In a grocery shopping context, shoppers will purchase dozens of different products and every bit of additional frustration and delay matters.

One issue with the website: the hero image is really bad. The background is blurred out so there's no context and there are no other objects in the frame so I have no sense of scale. If there was like an apple next to it or something, and you could see it was in a kitchen, that would be so much better.

[lovemenot]

And here's a few more.

Dash device is an exemplar of a service in the same way that a Kindle device is. Amazon retains the option to later go the other way too, but while the constraint is still on the supply side (limited markets) this device serves to fix the service as a thing and generate publicity.

Also, the platform is controlled by Amazon. Free from interference by Apple, Google, OEM or carrier. Wifi and internet aside, all support issues will be standard and coming back to the same place.

For a mass-market voice UI device with no screen, at this stage in the game, voice recognition has to be best in class. I doubt Amazon could have managed this through a plethora of mobile devices. And they would not want their commercial voice data to be processed on Apple's or Google's servers via OS services.

I expect a tear-down will show that some of the parts used are, for now, relatively expensive, but at volume, this device can become a give-away / throw-away.

[cookiecaper]

For what it's worth I doubt this video shows the whole story. Almost undoubtedly Amazon will batch your list up and email you a confirmation before it actually charges for and ships out the order, at which point you will be able to rectify errors in speech recognition or barcode misreadings.

Since Amazon seems to be specifically targeting parents with this ad, we might as well also mention that children will certainly find the Dash amusing with its beeping and red lights, and if Amazon automatically ordered everything your kid scanned for personal amusement, they'd have a lot of angry customers.

EDIT: On second watch, the ad does say "you can check out on Amazon Fresh or a smart phone", so they've explicitly indicated that there will be a confirmation process before the order is placed. This is just meant to make it quick to collect your list instead of having to type in "chocolate chips" and scroll through hundreds to find the brand you like and then repeat for every item in pantry.

[Zotabite]

This is precisely how it works.

You say things to the mic or scan items and they show up on your Dash list. From here, you can add them to your cart to check out.

Generic things like eggs, milk etc will default to the item you typically would order, so there is an aspect of personalization to it as well.

[dhaneshnm]

Levelling up against Costco and Walmart in really innovative way. Amazon had to have a "USP" other than "we will deliver stuff to your door steps". Now not only "you save the trip to the store, but also you get convenience of making your shopping list anytime, anywhere". Smart strategy that would be hard for traditional competitors like Wal-Mart to copy.

[gregcohn]

noting that a $299/year Amazon fresh subscription is required to play, this thing probably amortizes itself and then some pretty quickly. (Increases frequency of orders, increases number of things ordered, likely to increase retention of users ie length of subscription.)

[moonka]

What subscription are you referring to? If you spend $300 a month you get the big radish program which gives you lower minimums for delivery, but other than that there's no subscription program afaik.

Edited: I guess in the bay area it's a subscription program. In Seattle there's no subscription so I was confused.

[calvin]

"Amazon Prime Fresh members get the benefits of both Amazon Prime and AmazonFresh for an annual membership fee of $299. Prime Fresh membership is currently available only in the Southern California and San Francisco, CA Metro areas."

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

[johnlbevan2]

>"without the friction of having to help everyone find the app and register with the same account"

Sounds like a gap - Ninite for mobile.

(A quick Google suggests the idea's out there, but not yet implemented - http://www.reddit.com/r/Android/comments/mvgh7/is_there_some...)

[triangleman]

johnlbevan, you are hellbanned, that means no one can see your posts unless they are signed in and have "showdead" turned on.

[BallinBige]

I have to kindly disagree.

Every one is becoming increasingly more addicted to their iDevices or Android devices. It doesnt have anything to do with IQ, its common sense to use whats on you - your 'smart phone.

[wbillingsley]

"...go ahead and grab it with flour on your hands". I don't know about you, but I wouldn't grab my smartphone with flour on my hands. Neither would I be trying to take a picture of a barcode with my cellphone in one hand, baby in the other, phone cover flapping down over my hand making it tricky to see what I'm doing while I try to pudge a greasy thumb at the "shoot" button while... blast I dropped it and it's bounced off the granite bench top onto the tiled floor.

"My smartphone has this computational ability" does not equal "my smartphone is in any way designed to be ergonomic or convenient for this task"

[Rusky]

> Ultimately we shouldn't assume consumers value convergence, especially when it creates ever increasing complexity in user experience

Reminds me of this excellent article by Bret Victor: http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesi...

Making everything an app narrows the bandwidth between the user and the tool. Now everyone needs a phone, and you can't leave the scanner where it gets used, and you have to go through the generalized touch interface to get to the functionality instead of (and this is a valid UI) just picking up the scanner.

[sukuriant]

I have never read that article before; but, it was absolutely amazing. Thanks for bringing it up!

[ChuckMcM]

Actually I think it is simpler than that, there was a time when the programmability of the phone was so much better than you could do in a cost effective embedded system that it was the right choice. Now you can put a 32 bit ARM Cortex M on a device for $3 and so spending on the plastic is more feasible.

[akramhussein]

You are probably right. I think some M3s have a DSP which could be leveraged for the voice portions. I'd imagine they also have a TI CC3000-like module with the whole TCP/IP stack to handle the comms. Maybe not necessarily the 3000, as they offer same functionality in larger sized modules for a lower cost. Further, I'd say TI also because of their SimpleLink system, which allows you to connect to Wi-Fi without entering SSIDs/passwords on a device. You'd just need to download the Amazon app to facilitate the initial connection if I understand it correctly.

[akramhussein]

UPDATE: Came across this video (40 seconds in), which all but confirms SimpleLink - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLOzF0Y4Mqw

[zanny]

Opening an app is, thankfully, something the tech industry has managed to train the average consumer to do.

I'd argue though remembering where you put this thing, or "oh hey the wifi password got changed why isn't the food scanner working?" adds lots more complexity than hitting an app icon. The app route also enables you to have multiple scanners - since the target audience of such a product is probably already heavy on tech, and most probably have multiple cell phones.

I guess that last line might be the issue. It isn't really a cell phone, it is a capacitive touch computer with a microphone and speaker, but that is something we haven't yet conveyed well.

[dotBen]

Respectfully, there's geek-thinking again. Wifi password changing is a straw-man argument - most households use the default SSID and password that came with the router (if you don't believe me go to a residential area outside of SF and see how many 2WireXXX or ATTXXXX SSID's there are). Those that do set their own password never change it again.

Apps enabling multiple scanners - again assumes multiple smartphone ownership in the house in order for everyone to use it vs just having a single dedicated scanner that (as Amazon suggests in their site) hangs on your refrigerator.

I'm not even sure the average consumer is sufficiently trained yet about opening apps. I heard a segment on NPR recently where multiple callers (and the host) referred to a company's mobile-optimized website as an "app", many normal people don't really know what an app really is. I'll dig out the Pew Research study on mobile phones that said something like 20% of smartphone owners don't install any apps on their phones beyond those that came with the device (perhaps because they're fuzzy on the concept).

UPDATE: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/news/story/2012-01-30/sm... - 17% of smartphone owners don't use any apps at all according to Pew.

[AdrianRossouw]

I'm a geek and I don't use apps. I only use safari, flipboard (which is html based), and comiczeal. I'm actively building a streaming web-based replacement for my comic book reader.

I think people who think their phone can replace a dedicated barcode scanner should be forced to stand in a busy super market where all the checkout counters are forced to use an app to scan everything.

[Ma8ee]

Opening an app is awkward when you do something else, in particular something like cooking. This gadget I just pick up from the counter, press a button and scan or speak. I don't have to worry about slightly wet or dirty fingers. Compare that with my phone, which either is somewhere else in the house or in my pocket. Before I pick it up from my pocket I want to make sure that don't have meat juice, tomato sauce or chocolate on my fingers. I have to press one button to start the phone, maybe press a pin code, find the app either by sweeping between several screens with icons or by starting search and type several characters hopefully not making any mistakes and finally be able to scan or speak to the app. At this point the meat is burnt and the sauce has boiled over.

Dedicated devises definitely have their uses, and this one is one of them.

[bitrazor]

Keep in mind that phones have a pretty high per-use setup cost: 1) Not all phones are voice activated, you you have to pick them up

2) If you're cooking and your hands are occupied/covered, you're going to have a hard time using a phone with your hands. Phones aren't typically waterproof, and touchscreens don't typically work well with water on them.

3) If you use a screen lock on your phone, any app is immediately inconvenient given #2

This device seems to be designed specifically for the job, and has a low per-use setup cost.

[cookiecaper]

I think the grandparent's post is blowing the issue out of proportion. Amazon Dash isn't a phone app because phone apps are really slow and difficult for this use (if you've ever tried to use a barcode scanner based on your phone's built-in camera, you know what I'm talking about), not because people can't understand that their phone can do more than one thing. It is true that non-technical people are probably less annoyed by redundancy, but we shouldn't presuppose that this product is actually redundant just because phones can eventually do all the same tricks. The thing is that phones can't do those tricks as well, so the separation is justified.

[porterhaney]

The loop on the end is for opening beers.

[Zotabite]

Its rubberized. Would be pretty hard to open a beer bottle with it. :)

[zhte415]

A lot easier. I imagine you have never opened a beer bottle with a paper handkerchief?

[vuzum]

They released this amazing piece of hardware, and then they can use the same technology to complement it with an app. So you have both worlds happy - with or without a smartphone in the house. ;)

[Zigurd]

2010 called and wants it's smartphones-are-for-rich-geeks product formulation back.

Everyone who would buy their groceries via Amazon has a smartphone. This device is as baffling as it looks. With a smartphone you have the choice of UPC code scanning, QR codes, or label/logo recognition (as in Goggles).

One of the photos implies it is a laser bar code scanner. So if this gizmo is useful, it's because it would be faster and more reliable than photographing bar codes. Not because potential users don't have, or can't use a phone camera for this purpose.

[larrys]

"it would be faster"

Friction is key. The example I typically use is "if the laser printer were in the basement vs. next to your desk how much would you use it?"

A device that you can pick up, hit a button, and do your thing has less friction than doing the same on a smartphone.

[philwelch]

My smartphone is always within reach for me because I'm addicted to it. This thing? It's somewhere in the kitchen maybe.

[Too]

Older generations use their phones for...calling people. Not refreshing Facebook every 30s. That means the phone will be in the last place where they made a phone call, which could easily be the basement. This thing? Its somewhere in the kitchen maybe; exactly where it is supposed to be used.

[Nullabillity]

Why would this be useful in the kitchen if there's a day's delivery delay anyway?

[tripzilch]

Because that's the place where you want to quickly add an item or make a note on your shopping list.

[jonknee]

In the kitchen maybe is the perfect place for the thing to use to have replacement food items added to your shopping list. That's where they want you to keep it even.

[philwelch]

The type of people who would use this have lots of things in the kitchen and adding another kitchen gadget isn't necessarily the best solution.

[ANH]

You're forgetting the voice recognition. What if there's no barcode to scan? The Fire TV voice search is excellent -- I used it last night -- and if the Dash has similar tech then it might actually be a useful supplement to the apps.

[Nullabillity]

And they could stuff the same software in a phone too.

[pinaceae]

you talk as if this already was a runaway success with consumers. did i miss something? cuecat bombed as well.

maybe it will take off, maybe it will not.

drawing any conclusions right now is bs.

[johnny99]

The cuecat has had an interesting second life as a book scanner. Niche market, yes, but works great for the purpose.

[ctdonath]

Many products come before their time, then bomb. Time passes, technology catches up, society gets ready, business models evolve, and the product succeeds.

[interstitial]

Did you get the memo? HN users can deduce the future from a few well stated postulates that engender no controversy or original thought. When expectations are shattered by renegades and outliers, HN spends the next two weeks publishing reasons why we knew it all along.

[rickdale]

That's true, our non technical parents can be funny with technology. But from my experience it all comes down to motivation. My mom has a hard time plugging in her computer and definitely can't remember the power button is on the back, but put her on a dating website and she is like a little kid texting.

[dm2]

I think you're missing the main reason why they made the separate device, to generate more sales.

If you receive a free device in the mail that can scan your groceries, you'll use it. If you receive a link to a free app then there is a much slimmer chance that you'll use the service and purchase the products.

[nnq]

> Ultimately we shouldn't assume consumers value convergence

Yep, indeed. And the frustrating part is that they choose "easy" over "simple" and end up drowning themselves in "complexity". And they go like "I have so many devices already, and I've already went through the pain of learning to use them, I'm not going to bother to learn the mobile app you talk about too, even if it you say it can replace them all and save me money, it's jut too much for my brain, this I already know, go away!". Big win for the sellers of these devices that are first to get to the market. Amazon will win big with these!

The interesting people is how can we educate consumers to value what we call "convergence", because their current way of thinking hurts both themselves (they end up spending more and being too "overloaded" to be capable to make the best shopping decisions, or the other extreme, having access only to "curated slices of the market" with the same consequences) and to the tech sector as a whole (yeah, more devices mean more innovation at start, but since convergence will happen anyway at a point, all we end up is reinventing wheels and generating tons of needless complexity that we drown ourselves in...).

(for a definition of how I use 'simple', 'easy' and 'complex' refer to - http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy it's about programming but I think the metaphors also apply to UI/X)

[ericcumbee]

This if Amazon Fresh were available in her Area is targeted right at my grandmother. She Has Macular Degeneration and can not drive. My Grandfather has to drive and his energy level seems to diminish by the day. So needless to say Grocery Shopping takes both of them. With her eyes a smartphone is more or less useless. But this having a speech function seems like it would be perfect for her.

[hoka]

To some extent, though. When I'm home, my mother gets extremely frustrated (still!) that there isn't one remote that does everything.

[tormeh]

Yeah, but she doesn't want all the buttons from all the remotes moved to a single monstermote, she wants the TV remote to do everything as if the only thing connected was a TV. "Why do I have to choose channels on my TV AND cable/satellite box?" and "why are there multiple sound levels for the HiFi, TV, cable and DVD boxes?" are questions no one has adequately answered and they're questions everyone except geeks and techno-fetishists are asking.

I actually want Apple to do something about this, though I'm not normally in on Apple's philosophy. I propose the following:

1. Any TV channel without content on it goes away. If you only have 3 channels with signal you get no benefit from being able to select 96 channels of white noise.

2. Cable/satellite channels stack on top of the TV channels. It just looks like your TV has more over-the-air channels when you plug in the box.

3. DVD-players and so on are treated as channels (see 3). EXT goes away. A device can be represented by as many channels as it wants, but they're all stacked on top of the TV channels. No special treatment, except perhaps a lower number. A device is turned on when you select a channel associated with it.

4. Any sound systems automatically defer to the settings on the TV. They behave as if they were the TV speakers. No setup. No settings. No knobs to turn. Plug and Play. If a sound system has buttons it's too complicated.

5. DVD/BR players lose all but play/pause, ff/rwd and the nevigational buttons. Why is there a numpad on my DVD remote? I don't even want to know. Just make it go away. Same with the TV remote itself: Everything except on/off, numpad and volume disappears. Remotes are not unified, but everything that can be deferred to the TV remote is deferred to it.

The above isn't completely perfect, but it's kind of obvious.

I'm currently studying but I might be available for hiring or consulting. I obviously compare favorably with whoever is maintaining the status quo.

[jimmaswell]

>Yeah, but she doesn't want all the buttons from all the remotes moved to a single monstermote, she wants the TV remote to do everything as if the only thing connected was a TV. "Why do I have to choose channels on my TV AND cable/satellite box?" and "why are there multiple sound levels for the HiFi, TV, cable and DVD boxes?" are questions no one has adequately answered and they're questions everyone except geeks and techno-fetishists are asking.

When I was 4 we had a cable box and a TV. I could obviously see that the cable box had its own volume and its video output was its own thing that only went to one channel on the TV itself, because it was what turned the cable wire coming in into a signal, which it put on its output cable wire directed to only one channel, channel 3 or 4, and that that applied to its volume as well. Nobody explained it to me, I could just tell by looking at it. I wasn't a "geek" or a "techno-fetishist." I don't think anyone of any age who thinks about it for more than one second finds this a difficult question, hopefully.

[tormeh]

There are people out there who don't know what communism is. Not the precise definition, just the loose concept.

50% of all people are dumber than average.

More importantly, though, is that the current arrangement is inelegant.

[FireBeyond]

What of Logitech's Harmony system? It works around the concept of activities.

"Watch TV" - it asks initially, "What input is the TV set to?" "What remote do you use to control the volume?" "What remote to change the channel?"

And from then on, it works. It doesn't cover all on your list, but it has the potential.

[DiabloD3]

I agree with the Harmony suggestion. I bought one to replace all my remotes purely because I don't need 900 different settings that all do the same thing.

For example, I have a TV, a Bluray player, and an AV receiver. I choose the "watch a movie" task, it turns all three on, sets the TV input to the input the AV receiver is plugged into, the AV receiver to the input the Bluray player is plugged into, and then maps the play/stop/ff/rev/etc buttons to the Bluray player and the volume buttons to the AV receiver.

Every button is configurable, all the on screen menu options on the remote are configurable.

[tormeh]

That the buttons are configurable is a bug, not a feature. It doesn't come with your TV, you have to know that you should buy it and you have to set it up. It works for you, but does it work for your SO/parents or whatever? Or did you have to teach them how to use it? If yes then it doesn't really work.

An example of something similar: Ubuntu can become as simple as a stone. It would still be too complicated because it doesn't come pre-installed on officially supported PCs. Not third-party-brand-no-ones-heard-about with tentative OS support. I'm talking about an official Ubuntu PC where everything is made to fit with each other. Me and you are OK with patchworks of software and hardware, bugs and weird command line wizardy. Normal people want appliances. Windows PCs are something people treat as horrible appliances, which they've sort of learned to tolerate and work with over a decade or more of training. It's like a fridge with a control panel. Normal people need iOS. Options and customizability are bugs, not features to most people. Sometimes some (but not most) people want more than just an appliance, but they still want the minimal complexity possible given their requirements. Buying extra remotes or installing another OS is really not what they want.

Downvoters: I dragged desktop Linux into this because I'm excited about Linux and because it's hopeless as a consumer product.

[thrownaway2424]

I strongly disagree here. I have a Harmony remote, I know exactly how to use it, and I consider it a usability disaster. It definitely would not be my model for consumer device usability.

[FireBeyond]

Partially agreed - the configuration leaves a lot to be desired, but once programmed it’s good. The biggest thing for my girlfriend was the “Help” function (if she hadn’t kept the remote pointed for the entire sequence) - but that’s been largely negated by my latest upgrade, which has an IR blaster in the entertainment center itself.

[thrownaway2424]

I have the Harmony 890 and aside from the disaster that is programming it, I also find it frustrating to use. If it's decided to turn off the screen, it does so with a slow fade out, and while it's doing that you can't do anything. It's like it has one thread of execution, and while it's changing backlight brightness it ignores the buttons. This is really annoying because then you have to shake it to wake it back up and hit your button again.

Another glaring problem is how it decides to carp about low battery levels right in the middle of what you're doing. When this happens, it ignores your input until you acknowledge the low battery warning. After you acknowledge, it completely forgets what you were in the middle of doing. As if that weren't all bad enough, the battery warning can come back at any time after you dismissed the last one, including immediately, one second later, etc.

I find myself using the individual remotes more and more often in the past few years. They are stateless, have excellent battery life, and are incapable of measuring their battery levels. They don't have any of the Harmony's bad habits.

[tormeh]

I don't doubt that the remote is great. Good on Logitech. But the old remotes don't go away. They linger around like naval mines waiting for a tech-illiterate person to at best get horribly confused or at worst fuck something up. It ends up being another thing with too many features and buttons that the geek-in-residence has to teach and help everyone with.

Logitech isn't really the company to do this. Apple would be great. Their brand is perfect for this. Apple's brand is, as far as I've gathered, "open your wallet and we'll make your tech easy to use, trouble-free, beautiful and sure to impress your friends". Logitech is "that keyboard/mice company". Would you buy a TV and HiFi from Logitech?

[crazychrome]

One thing I learnt over the years is as simple as this: don't be blind to challenge the current paradigm. once upon a time it's desktop application on windows. then the search. now it's app on mobile phone.

I think you are on the right analytic route but somehow down to wrong direction. the mass market just doesn't want more than one ways to consume computing. at a given time, vast majority of consumer want to learn exactly one thing (WIMP, google, App with touch support) and then apply the knowledge everywhere. the cost of migration to new paradigm for the mass market is so high that minor mutations would have to live with sub 10% share. (think about MacOS in window's high day, bing/yahoo in google's day, and Nokia).

will Dash have a market? yes. will it be successful? no.

[27182818284]

>HN'ers asking why this isn't a cell phone app take note - this exemplifies why we (geeks) don't make good use cases

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I still have a working CueCat. I think the Jury is way still out on this. I'm betting it will do better than the CueCat because Amazon as a company has a better track record, but assuming this was a brilliant move to use a proprietary, non-smart phone device is—it is just way too early! For example, all it takes is the next generation of phone to be like, "Hey we should improve our barcode scanning in the next Samsung Galaxy SVI The Undiscovered Country."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CueCat

[maxerickson]

I would argue that things that introduce complexity are just bad forms of integration.

It's easy to conceive of device boxes just adding channels to the TV, or having a protocol for using the TV remote to navigate their menu (this is a great opportunity to create a bad experience, but it wouldn't have to).

[duaakshay]

Absolutely agree! Also while this could very easily have been built as a phone app, scanning barcodes, voicing out groceries would first require the user to start up the app a first step. Its almost like Google Ware as dedicated hardware for Google Now!

[dsugarman]

I understand what you are saying but I feel like you overlook the power of having everything on one device, if you are at a friend's house eating something new you like you will likely have your phone on you. Also this viewpoint id's really shortsighted, everyone will be very used to using your cellphone for everything as our generation ages

[larrys]

" if you are at a friend's house eating something new you like you will likely have your phone on you"

Nothing will prevent you from doing that also (I'm sure).

Just like you can own a kindle but also read kindle books on, for example, an iphone.

[tomasien]

True, but shouldn't it ALSO be an app? Maybe in the works, I dunno.

[jeffgreco]

There is already a dedicated Amazon Fresh app, I'd imagine they'll integrate the functionality.