[agentultra]

My theory is that "burnout" is a symptom of the endemic "hero" meme of our culture. Think about all the movies you've seen since the 1980s, the shows you've watched, the books you've read. Embedded in the majority of them is the simple idea that there's something special inside you that can set you apart from everyone else. It whispers seductively to that part of your brain that lies to you about how important you are. Any story or idea that fills the need to feel different, special, and unique passes through our scrutiny without a second thought. We want to believe it's true even as we examine our motivations for doing so because it's hard wired into our brains.

The problem is that this weakness is easily exploited. Writers, motivational speakers, game designers, poets... they're all in the business of hacking our brains. We've been doing such a good job of it since the sixties that our popular culture is unconsciously driven by it.

And it manifests as burnout when it clashes with other popular memes like the Protestant Work Ethic. If you just put in a little elbow grease and work harder you will stand out. If you write that amazing library to make programmers' lives easier they will shower you with praise on the Internet and invite you to speak at conferences so that you may shower the masses with your brilliant message. Burnout happens when all of the rewards of those fantasies fail to materialize despite all of the effort and hard work you've put into chasing them.

Worked 60 - 80 hour weeks for the last six months and still got overlooked for that promotion? Burnout.

Put off investing time with your family in order to work on that semi-popular open source library and pimp it out at every conference you can submit a proposal to... and you STILL aren't getting the accolades and recognition you deserve? Burnout.

My advice for avoiding burnout? Figure out where your desires and ambitions are coming from. Why do you want to work so hard for recognition? Why do you feel you need to be recognized? What's so important about it? Start from there.

[gamegoblin]

Hanging out on sites like this definitely doesn't help. In every thread it seems like there is someone who is a perfect expert on whatever being discussed.

Need to diagnose a problem in a defunct modem using only an oscilloscope? Someone can. Strange behavior of the JVM? Oh, someone has implemented their own JVM on a 4kb machine as a hobby project.

Then you get username delineation and there is this idea of some abstract "hacker" of hackernews (or whatevertechsite.com) that can do everything with ease.

Because after seeing all that I think if I can't debug modems with oscilloscopes or implement the JVM I'm behind and subpar.

[michaeleloftis]

One of the things to keep in mind is that the guy who can implement the JVM, the girl who debugs modems, and the dude who has a PhD in theoretical physics, are (usually) all different people. Sites like this are good at surfacing the expert in threads, so that you spend time seeing people at their best. It looks like everyone is brilliant in everything, but in fact what is really happening is that many people are brilliant in their domain.

[thewarrior]

If I could be atleast half as good as some of the people on here in even a single domain that'd be great ;-)

[ZenoArrow]

You could see things like that, but the only reason I read comments at all is to get insights from people that are more knowledgable in a particular subject than myself (or to engage in debate with those that have an interesting point of view). Every time I learn something I value from a comment I've just broadened my horizons. You could see these people as competitors, but in reality we're all eternal students.

[npsimons]

There's two good reasons to hang out somewhere like HN:

1) It gives you perspective - yes, you're not "the best" and neither am I. Learn to live with it.

2) It helps you get better. There's a saying that goes something like "if you're the smartest person in the room, leave - there's nothing you can learn there." While pithy and not entirely true, it tends to push you in the right direction by making you push yourself. Maybe you never thought some of those things were possible, but if others can do it, there's a good chance you can too (whether you want to or not is another question), and you can learn a lot on HN.

Apart from that, yeah, HN can be a time sink.

[dpcan]

I've reached a similar conclusion lately in dealing with burnout. I'm trying to figure out who I really want to be, rather than what I thought I was supposed to be.

It wasn't so much movies,books,etc, but as a 34 yr-old ex-computer geek of the 90's, I'm dealing with my own "expectations" complex.

I spent day and night back then on computers, building them, fixing them, coding, fixing them at schools, local businesses, for parents, friends, friends of my parents, etc, and I heard over and over and over again that I was "a genius" or "the next Bill Gates" and so on.

Well, turns out I'm not "the next Bill Gates". But I sure have spent the last 10 years trying to figure out how to live up to those high expectations.

As a result, I've become relatively successful in my business, but I'm always combating burnout as I wonder if what I'm doing is really what I should actually be doing with my life - or if this is just a response to all the praise I had as a teenager because I had that natural knack for computers back in the day when people still thought CD-ROMs were cup holders (joke).

I'm sure I'm not alone in this HN crowd. Many of you in your 30's must have had a similar experience. At least I know my own friends back then did.

And yes, I do feel that need to be "recognized" for some reason. Why the heck is that?

[mgkimsal]

"Well, turns out I'm not "the next Bill Gates". But I sure have spent the last 10 years trying to figure out how to live up to those high expectations."

Last year, I had to come to grips with the fact that I'll never be a Beatle. ;)

[alaskamiller]

When you go to heaven, and St. Peter asks you what have you done with your life. You don't get past the judgement by saying, I'm sorry I didn't get to be the next Steve Jobs, the next Bill Gates, the next Elon Musk.

You'll get asked why didn't you become the best you possible.

[hashberry]

You're not alone. I'm in my 30s and daydream about having a post on the frontpage of HN with everyone "recognizing" how awesome my projects/thoughts are. How can anyone be satisfied with mediocrity?

[woah]

It's not hard to get stuff on the front page. Make a reasonably nice project, get a designer friend to do a landing page. Then let 10 of your friends know beforehand, get a commitment for upvotes.

Post it, get your friends to upvote it (DO NOT send them a direct link, the HN spam system picks that up, they need to find it themselves on the new page).

This will buy you maybe like 30 minutes on the frontpage, from there something lame will drop, something decent will stick for a few hours, and something more awesome/controversial can stay all day.

I've been directly involved in like 3 of these (as landing page designer), and an "upvoting friend" in maybe about 10. YC companies do this (I was surprised at first, I thought they got a magic orange YC upvote button).

Extra Credit: A "midbrow dismissal" in the comments that is then debunked in a condescending/clever response can be helpful.

[dpcan]

I don't think satisfaction from being recognized will be achieved through coercing the system. I think what we want is a genuine pat on the back from the community and a natural rise to the top based on our accomplishment alone.

[derefr]

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."

--temporarily-embarrassed millionaires who, I might add, all know that it is their "destiny," their Heroic Tale to tell, to "regain" those millions through Hard Work, Grit and Stick-To-It-iveness. (But not Cunning. Cunning is for villains, like that guy who got the promotion instead of you.)

[sitkack]

The feutalism of a you-can-be-anything you want society. Only if you try hard enough. If you aren't successful, your fault, didn't try hard enough.

[thewarrior]

Your theory explains half the story , atleast in my case. Programming is getting increasingly competitive and so some of the anxiety is motivated by worries about my future job security.

There has never been a better time to be born as a driven and prodigious individual. There are lots of young kids today leveraging technology produce music, code , draw and animate all through the power of the internet. Eg: Today I was amazed to learn that EDM producer Madeon is only 19 years old.

People might be burning themselves out by falling for the "hero" meme , but on the other hand , I feel that in a few years this will lead to an explosion of quality and output in every field as more prodigies are created.

Just imagine , there are 10 and 12 year olds browsing HN right now and they're being exposed to levels of ambition and mastery that they could never even imagine if they were restricted to their local peer group. So it starts young but on the other hand we might start seeing more progress than ever before.

[petitev]

I was one of those 12 year olds hanging out on usenet and slashdot about 15 years ago. I was exposed to technology, computational/mathematical language/jargon, the social pressures of continual growth and development, and so on, at a very young age, and it is most certainly a part of my core identity.

I still burnt out. I was working on my PhD in computer security and it took me 2 years to recover from 8 years of straight schooling and essentially no social life, or at best, a negative social life.

Growing up, I did not learn how to relax. I did not learn how to balance my mental and social health needs with my desires of who I wanted to be when I was 30. I did not learn how to balance my need to constantly be praised by my peers for my hard work and intelligence, with my need for social support, compassion, and understanding for when I failed (or was in the process of failing).

I burnt out really bad. I didn't have anyone to turn to because I was ashamed. I do have to say HN helped me look at failure in a different light, as a learning experience that I would likely value forever, but I still don't know if given the choice again, I would choose to experience it in the way I did.

I don't like to believe that learning trade offs are the same, generally, for each generation, but my experience tells me they are. Now I spend my time learning other things, like how to talk to people without turning into a frozen ball of nerves.

[agumonkey]

It's an issue when you're so into something that it consumes everything. Maybe also to escape other less favorable sides of your life (I mean mine here, but it seems social life was a burden for you too). The issue is that when this thing starts to crack too, then there's nothing else. Very heavy on your soul. That's why I read the 'do what you love' with a grain of salt now. And sometimes the idea of being lost in a context ([re]learning social life) that I disliked before feels almost like a massage of surprise which, even if it was one side that I might disliked before, feels a lot more worthy than being stuck in your narrowing world.

[thewarrior]

Thanks for sharing your story. I can understand what you're talking about. It isn't easy but eventually you just learn to accept it.

[tps12]

> I was one of those 12 year olds hanging out on usenet and slashdot about 15 years ago. I was exposed to [goatse] at a very young age, and it is most certainly a part of my core identity.

[objectified]

While reading your great comment, I was hoping you'd continue explaining where these desires and ambitions would come from, and why they can cause burnout. But yes, people will have to figure that out for themselves. I've found that the patterns you describe come very close to conversations I've been having with people about playing music (which I've been doing intensively for quite a while now):

I hear a lot of people "wanting to play guitar", or "wishing they could play like <player X>". I often ask them whether they want to a) be seen as a great guitarist, or b) actually play guitar. There's a big difference between a and b. A revolves around the idea that you "are" something, and often, where others can see you as being something. B is about actually enjoying to play guitar, for no other reason than playing guitar. No recognition, no fame, no secondary intentions.

Everything you invest large amounts of time in should come from nothing but enjoying that thing you do in itself. But it's not easy. Motivations always get distorted by psychological influences (and that's what you meant by the last line of your comment, if I understood it correctly). There are many people who haven't received much validation or acceptance on a personal level while growing up, for instance. These people will keep reaching, but they'll never reach actual self acceptance. Burnout.

It's really important to confront yourself with issues that you can identify inside yourself, and keep (re)defining yourself. Not what you do, but who you are. What you do should be a consequence of who you are, not a reaction to personal shortcomings you're not looking in the eye directly.

I'm not a psychologist, this is just my take on things.

[agentultra]

> people will have to figure that out for themselves.

... that's why I didn't go on about my own personal experiences and lack of answers.

> Motivations always get distorted by psychological influences

And if you start investigating the source of your ambitions and desires you may suspect, as I do, that many of them are not your own.

> why they can cause burnout

I hope I explained that. In highly reduced terms it boils down to anticipating the outcome of an endeavor based on an idealized version of reality. When you put in the effort to achieve those outcomes and are disappointed by the results you get burnt out. The hard part is figuring out where your idealized reality is coming from.

[noname123]

I'll start. I want to work so hard because I want to get up on a podium someday at my high school or college podium and make a "f-you all" speech like Jerry McGuire in "Jerry McGuire" (1996). I want to make all of the guys who bullied me or dismissed me wonder looking at me how they got where they are now. I want to make all of the girls/ex'es who spurned me or laughed at me wonder why they didn't see the diamond in the rough and where they are now with their faded beauty.

I want to make all of my co-workers/bosses/peers who droned on smugly about their "weekend project" or play politics shameless/gunning for promotions that I was passed up for or social networked and got lucky and got funding because of BS skillz, feel jealous in their deepest of their hearts and acknowledge my technical prowess for a moment despite every ounce in their masculine alpha-geek conscience begrudging the idea. Like Conan the Barbarian, "What is the meaning of life? To Crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their woman!"

But my conscience tells me that I have to tone it down a bit because I'm not a jock, I don't want to stoop down to the same level of those who've bullied me. I'm a sensitive hacker in every sense of the goodness and owning that word, I live in Brooklyn (but not Williamsburg); I'm not a hipster and I take my gf every weekend to the indie movie theatre and we discuss the scenes and snuggle afterwards. But then I get on the Ubuntu laptop and hack on my github repo. I'm not a jock and I'm not a hipster, I'm a sensitive hacker.

I want to start a company not for the money because once it gets big, not only will give me financial freedom but will give me an opportunity to give back to the open-source community (after all, isn't what social networking is originally about, finding an connection). I'll start a blog with a side-bar with me as the Founder of X. I'll give the traditional old media/education/gov't and even tech establishment a piece of my mind, information is suppose to be free, college is dead, employee's are companies not employees, bitcoins is the future and the establishment is just afraid of change. I'll work hard, I'll code and code some more until I ship, in between the late night hackathon and late afternoon coding hangover, I'll tweet for a break, I'll share on your FB wall, I'll reddit and share my thoughts with the community (after all, that's what coding is about, finding a connection),

I occasionally come across article about burn-outs. Of course, I've had that for sure, no correction, I've had many mental breakdowns. It makes me pause, think and re-evaluate. But I've grown wiser and stronger, I'm not that same person. I know what's important in my life. My friendships and my SO. I'm going to book a ticket on Stubhub for a show next weekend that I and my GF can go to, starred artist on her Spotify. And just booked another trip to Austin to visit my college friend, just in time for SXSW. (After all, that's what life is about, finding a connection). I and my SO taking salsa lessons and I bike on weekends to find another positive outlet to vent my frustration and energy (after all, that's what life is about, trying out new things and discovering yourself). I'm saving money consciously for a down payment for a house after reading more about passive income because I'm growing to become an adult.

I'm an responsible adult now, a sensitive hacker who hacks; And I'll code and code some more and then I'll spend some quality time with my SO.

And I will ship, that's for sure. Ship or die trying.

[lawnchair_larry]

Why do you care about those people?

I suspect that in a few more years, you'll revoke their license to occupy your brain and control your path in life. That's true freedom.

Some people don't realize this until it's too late, and all they can do is look back and say, "for what?"

If your ego doesn't kill you, it will rob you of your best years, so be careful.

[LearnAndBurn]

> Why do you care about those people?

Powerful words.

I disagree with the parent comment even though I share a lot of the same thoughts, feelings and desires. Vengeance would surely be great, for a moment. But your words say it well. Who cares what people think? Your point on ego is spot on.

FWIW, OP focuses a little too much on "finding a connection" and consistently saying, "that's what life is about." IMO, life isn't about anything. Calm down. Relax. Everything is arbitrary. While I think it's great OP has found meaningful activities, the things he finds enjoyable sound dreadful to me.

But we're all different :)

[noname123]

I hate to unveil, but you guys realize that my post is a satire right? Told in the words of the self-proclaimed "sensitive hacker," e.g., the Asian and Caucasian American computer programmer in his mid-to-late 20's who go to Mexican burrito places for work lunches and talk of big dreams and sulk on lonely nights, imagining triumphs over past slights,

> But my conscience tells me that I have to tone it down a bit because I'm not a jock, I don't want to stoop down to the same level of those who've bullied me.

He's exactly like the jock in that he carry the same insecurities/low self-esteem and look for an arbitrary status symbol (e.g., funding, startup exit) in his given social circle to overcompensate, belittle those who don't have it. Except he can't admit it to himself and is convinced that he's better (when he's no better) than Jerry McGuire and Arnold Schwarzenegger aka the sales guy or the project manager who are slightly duchey and hits on the office manager and graphics designer girls.

> I live in Brooklyn (but not Williamsburg); I'm not a hipster ... I'm not a jock and I'm not a hipster, I'm a sensitive hacker.

Although he participates in the same consumerist activity as the "hipster", going to Whole Food's, indie shows, bicycle ride-along's etc. He consider himself a special and unique breed, a "sensitive hacker" just like the "hipster" who believe their outwardly bohemian, counter-mainstream "attitude" somehow validate themselves; When Arduino and HN, like American Apparel is just niche marketing.

> I'll start a blog with a side-bar with me as the Founder of X ... I'll tweet for a break, I'll share on your FB wall,

He is convinced that his goal to "give back" and "blogging/startuping" is altruistic and giving back to community - when it's really his need to feel altruistic. What he really wants is to have a soap box to stand on, a podium to have his voice heard. The irony is that as much as he wants to be heard (and validated), he doesn't think really to listen to those right besides by him but is scared that he isn't heard - so aims to shout louder and try to drown out all the other "shouters."

> I'm going to book a ticket on Stubhub for a show next weekend that I and my GF can go to, starred artist on her Spotify ... I'm saving money consciously for a down payment for a house after reading more about passive income because I'm growing to become an adult.

He follows life like a mom checks off a grocery list or a Cosmos reader following the sex tips on Cosmos. Does he really know his friend or significant other or himself, or does he just like the idea of the clique, traveling, the relationship, Brooklyn or fears the missing out as he hear those around him get "richer" and "happier."

The biggest tragedy or comedy in life, depending on how you look at it, is people locking themselves in mental prison and self-styled martyrdom all in the name of the pursuit of freedom. There comes a time when a man must ask themselves whether a Renee Zellweger nose completes him - just shut up ... reset that broken nose.

[agentultra]

I'm sorry you felt you had to unveil.

I got it. Made my day. If there's ever a chance where we're in close geographic proximity I'll buy you a beverage of your choice.

[ehl]

Nice meta-comment! Your facetious meter is up to eleven, although I don't think they will get it.

[noname123]

Yes ehl, thanks for acknowledging the point - but who are we to judge? It is up to each man to discover who they're through experience, advice are worthless and the youth is only wasted on the young. And that's life in an essence: I'm finished. I'm fucked. Show Me the Money! You complete me ... just shut up, you had me at hello.

[route66]

Considering the first half: your are playing their game, isn't it? (something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEv1L4MCHj8)

[csmatt]

This is beautiful. I feel like it describes past, present, and future me and gives me hope and some nice guidelines.

[hackerpolicy]

I'm printing this.

[crucialfelix]

> It whispers seductively to that part of your brain that lies to you about how important you are. Any story or idea that fills the need to feel different, special, and unique ...

And yet this gets harder and harder on a planet of 7 billion people, more and more of them coming online; entire previously invisible countries of hackers popping up on the global screen.

We've gone through this already in music where the number of musicians and releases went exponential. It became harder to get heard, and your 15 minutes gets shorter.

We are not unique - that's a relic of the age of the individual. Perhaps we should leave that behind as a relic of the 20th century. Crowd intelligence and emergent behavior could be the place to put our energies.

[ZenoArrow]

Very well put. Thank you.