[trycatch]

What a great textbook example of whataboutism.

In Ukraine only 5 foreign TV channels were banned -- Vesti, Russia 24, ORT (First Channel World Network), RTR Planet, and NTV World. All of them were state-sponsored mouthpieces of Russian Goebbels-style propaganda, and it's in a country invaded by Russia. No wonder that these propaganda channels of foreign aggressors were banned.

In Russia Kremlin attacks its own legitimate independent from state press and opposition leaders. Russian independent TV channels were already destroyed long before (with exception of Dozhd that was attacked only recently), but yesterday Kremlin started to broadly use one more method in its fight against freedom of press -- Internet filters. And that what EFF article is about.

These situations have very little in common, and they very bundled together only to be used in the standard "but you are lynching negroes" argument.

> I don't necessarily agree with Russian government definition of 'extremist/radical', but their point is that above Russian sites have given their pages to neo-Nazis to call to armed struggle against the state.

Eh, neo-Nazis to call to armed struggle against the state? That's just bullshit. Good example, why Russian Goebbels-style propaganda is a problem.

[malkung]

> Eh, neo-Nazis to call to armed struggle against the state? That's just bullshit.

Why do you think it's bullshit? Have you seen those images from Kiev of people throwing cobbles and Molotov cocktails at police, and some firing guns? That's armed struggle against the state. Do you know that these people (not babushkas and pretty girls waving flags) belong to political parties or paramilitary groups confirmed as neo-Nazi in Europe (not just in Russia)?

[trycatch]

Because you are repeating Russia propaganda. Svoboda is not neo-Nazi, neither it's fascist. It's a nationalistic party, yes, but it's far far far away from being neo-Nazi. Pravyj Sektor is not neo-Nazi either, on 27 February the leader of Pravyj Sektor Yarosh met with ambassador of Israel in Ukraine, and Yarosh explained that they are against antisemitism or xenophobia. Do you think it will be possible would they be neo-Nazi? Read for example "Open letter of Ukrainian Jews to Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin." [1]

> They have tried to scare us (and are continuing their attempts) with “Bandera followers” and “Fascists” attempting to wrest away the helm of Ukrainian society, with imminent Jewish progroms. Yes, we are well aware that the political opposition and the forces of social protests who have secured changes for the better are made up of different groups. They include nationalistic groups, but even the most marginal do not dare show anti-Semitism or other xenophobic behavior. And we certainly know that our very few nationalists are well-controlled by civil society and the new Ukrainian government – which is more than can be said for the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services.

Or read "All-Ukrainian Jewish Congress: Antisemitism Not on the Rise" [2]. Or read articles on the website of Association of Jewish Organisations and Communities of Ukraine [3]. It observes antisemitic forces in Ukraine for decades, however I didn't find a single article that saw some threat from Maidan forces. But there are a lot of articles against Putin propaganda that exaggerates "neo-Nazi" threat. Neo-Nazi hazard from protesters in Ukraine is nothing more than an invention of Russian propaganda. If there is a fascist danger in Ukraine, it originates from Russian and pro-Russian forces that attack peaceful demonstrations, kill people, intimidate journalists, kidnap and shot in activists, invade foreign countries with intention to annex them.

[1] http://eajc.org/page32/news43672.html

[2] http://www.interpretermag.com/all-ukrainian-jewish-congress-...

[3] http://www.vaadua.org/ (in Russian)

[1gor]

I obviously won't change your opinions, but here are some facts that may be relevant.

  Ukrainian Jews seek urgent help from Israel Director-general of European 
  Jewish Association urges Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense 
  Minister Moshe Ya'alon to send security forces to Jewish communities 
  in Ukraine due to 'growing wave of anti-Semitic attacks.'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4492710,00.html

http://www.totpi.com/2014/02/25/ukraines-jews-to-israel-help...

Plenty of Jewish activists hate Putin enough to complain that such appeals 'help Russian propaganda'.

But there is another way to look at it, and it is that Russian views are correct from the outset:

The Ukrainian coup that deposed a legitimately elected president has been spearheaded by neo-nazi paramilitaries.

They now control key positions in the government, intimidate their political opponents, including what has remained of the Ukrainian parliament.

[trycatch]

> I obviously won't change your opinions, but here are some facts that may be relevant.

No, they are not relevant, that's one more piece of disinformation. Your quote:

> Ukrainian Jews seek urgent help from Israel Director-general of European Jewish Association urges Prime Minister Netanyahu and Defense...

inside the article

> Rabbi Menahem Margolin, has asked Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon...

Biography of Rabbi Menahem Margolin:

> Rabbi Menachem Margolin was born in Israel. After graduating from elementary studied he studied in Yeshivot in Bnei Brak and Kiryat Gat, and then in New York. From the U.S.A he left for a mission of a year to the Jewish community in Hungary and helped the local Rabbis to fulfill their rules. From Budapest he left for a mission of several months to Bangkok, Thailand. During these years he received his rabbinical ordination. In 2004 he was appointed as Program Director of the Rabbinical Centre of Europe (RCE) A year later he was appointed as the Secretary General of the organization and two years later was appointed as the General Director.

Yes, that guy has exactly zero to do with Ukraine. Funny that all this hysteria about neo-Nazies taking over the country is being spread from non-Ukrainian sources, while Ukrainian sources don't see a problem.

> But there is another way to look at it, and it is that Russian views are correct from the outset: The Ukrainian coup that deposed a legitimately elected president has been spearheaded by neo-nazi paramilitaries.

Enemy invaders deposed legitimately elected leader spearheaded by antisemitic communist forces. That's one more way to look at WWII. The problem of course that this view has nothing common with reality. Jews, Russians, Georgians, and plenty other minorities actively participated on Maidan -- something that absolutely impossible in a neo-nazi coup. And sorry, your views are not Russian views, those are views promoted by Putin propaganda.

> They now control key positions in the government, intimidate their political opponents, including what has remained of the Ukrainian parliament.

And that's again a load of bullshit.

[malkung]

> And that's again a load of bullshit.

Is this true or not, in your opinion:

Andriy Parubiy, the new secretary of Ukraine's security council, was a co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), otherwise known as Svoboda.

[malkung]

I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else. You can't really deny the neo-Nazi character of the leaders of the rioters. Have a look here, it's an non-Russian source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-qu...

Some quotes:

For starters, Andriy Parubiy, the new secretary of Ukraine's security council, was a co-founder of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), otherwise known as Svoboda. And his deputy, Dmytro Yarosh, is the leader of a party called the Right Sector which, according to historian Timothy Stanley, "flies the old flag of the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators at its rallies."

The Svoboda party has tapped into Nazi symbolism including the "wolf's angel" rune, which resembles a swastika and was worn by members of the Waffen-SS, a panzer division that was declared a criminal organization at Nuremberg. A report from Tel-Aviv University describes the Svoboda party as "an extremist, right-wing, nationalist organization which emphasizes its identification with the ideology of German National Socialism."* Notice how Tel-Aviv Jews do not seem to agree with the Ukrainian ones.

According to this BBC news clip two Svoboda parliamentarians in recent weeks posed for photos while "brandishing well-known far right numerology," including the numbers 88 -- the eighth letter of the alphabet -- signifying "HH," as in "Heil Hitler." This all makes Hillary Clinton's recent comments comparing Putin to Hitler appear patently absurd, as Stanley adeptly points out: "After all, in the eyes of many ethnic Russians, it is the Ukrainian nationalists -- not Putin -- who are the Nazis."

Last week Per Anders Rudling from Lund University in Sweden, an expert on Ukrainian extremists, told Britain's Channel 4 News: "A neo-fascist party like Svoboda getting the deputy prime minister position is news in its own right." Well, except in the U.S.

There are WAY too many unambiguous images and videos on the internet where the rioters sport Nazi or neo-Nazi symbols to ignore or dismiss as Russian propaganda like you do. Just google for "nazi ukraine" for images. You'll see Tyagnibok (one of the 3 leaders of the "peaceful protesters") there among the top results.

> the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services.

Incidentally, this is anti-Russian propaganda. There are neo-Nazis in Russia, but they have nothing to do with Putin or Russian security services. In fact, Russian neo-Nazis would be offended by this statement.

[trycatch]

> I admit I did not know about the letter from the Ukrainian Jews to Putin. I

Sure, you didn't, because you get your information from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like.

> I do not know what motivated them to write such a letter. It could be Bandera followers standing over them, or something else

That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authoritative Jewish organizations in Ukraine, two chief rabbis of Ukraine and opinion of the Congress of national minorities of Ukraine for the sole reason that they don't agree with your agenda formed on poor quality sources.

> Tel-Aviv Jews, ... from Lund University in Sweden

Yeah, apparently guys from Tel-Aviv and from Sweden see the situation better than people who actually live in Kiev and closely observe folks from Svoboda for decades. Sorry, no, Svoboda is not neo-Nazi, not even nearly. It's a legit party that got 10.5% on elections in 2012 that gets more and more moderate over time.

> the Russian neo-Nazis, who are encouraged by your security services.

> Incidentally, this is anti-Russian propaganda.

They are probably talking about Russian nazis in Ukraine. People like this one: http://imgur.com/a/QeuZp, who is directly supported by Kremlin propaganda. Or like these thugs who attacked peaceful pro-Ukrainian demonstration in Donetsk and killed 2 yesterday. Or like those thugs who killed 2 in Kharkov today.

[malkung]

> from garbage sources by useful leftist idiots from Huffington Post and like.

I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume?

> That's just so pathetic that is not even funny. You ignore opinion of the most authoritative Jewish organizations in Ukraine. > Yeah, apparently guys from Tel-Aviv and from Sweden see the situation better than people who actually live in Kiev and closely observe folks from Svoboda for decades.

So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter. That is indeed ridiculous. Did you ever wonder why the Ukrainian parliament, where Yanukovich's Regions Party had the majority, adopted anti-Maidan laws on January 16th, but in February was already unequivocally pro-Maidan? Do you think the armed masked "peaceful demonstrators" storming government buildings might have something to do with it?

I think those armed masked people are the reason why the Ukrainian Jews wrote such a letter. I don't see how Jews can possibly tolerate the Nazi symbols and slogans of the Right Sector (see above for images).

Here is what a chief Ukrainian rabbi has to say about "peaceful protesters" [1]:

"I told my congregation to leave the city center or the city all together and if possible the country too," Rabbi Azman told Maariv. "I don't want to tempt fate," he added, "but there are constant warnings concerning intentions to attack Jewish institutions."

Do you have any theory as to why he'd say that?

1. http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.5757...

[trycatch]

> I appreciate your level-headed unbiased approach. You prefer Fox News, I presume?

What an amazing argument, because there are only two media outlets in the world -- Fox News and Huffington Post. No, I prefer Völkischer Beobachter obviously.

> So, for you, Russian sources are propaganda, and EU and Israel sources are misinformed (apparently by the Russians), and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter.

EU is generally ok, nobody supports Putin, except few marginal media outlets (or marginals inside of mainstream outlet), so you need to mine for a good quote -- Russian propagandists even had to leak taped Paet conversations to mine good for them quote.

> and only Ukrainian pro-Maidan sources matter.

Good sources matter (like independent journalists reporting facts), authoritative opinions matter (like opinion about local antisemitism by local Jewish community). Opinions of some leftie guy from the different part of the Earth, who decided to mine some quotes for one side and call that "analysis" -- no, sorry, thing like these don't matter.

> Do you think the armed masked "peaceful demonstrators" storming government buildings might have something to do with it?

This has everything to do with the president who at first stole billions, then decided to shot in his own citizens killing almost 100, and then fled away cutting all communications, including communications with his own party.

> I think those armed masked people are the reason why the Ukrainian Jews wrote such a letter.

Nice conspiracy theory. Strangely, people like Joseph Zisels were not afraid to speak out in the Soviet Union (where Zisels was held in prison for some years for his anti-Soviet views), but now they are so scared that even write panegyrics about neo-Nazis.

> Here is what a chief Ukrainian rabbi has to say about "peaceful protesters" [1]:

Oh, jeez. You just can't not to bring here all the pro-Russian lies? Haaretz lied. See "How newspaper Haaretz distorted words of Ukrainian Rabbi" [1]. Long story short -- 1) Haaretz chronologically moved the statement by the rabbi. Reuven Azman told about it on 20 February, the day when snipers killed more than 50, so it made sense in context. Haaretz published it on 22 February, when Yanukovich already fled and the situation was stable. So Azman talked about the danger _from Yanukovich_, not from protesters. 2) Haaretz misquoted Azman, his statement was not about all Jews, but only women and children. Extended to all Kiev's Jews by Haaretz. 3) And then Haaretz claimed that Azman had connections with Kremlin -- and that was the claim Azmad actually considered to sue them for.

Now Rabbi Reuven Azman just like everybody else denies Russian lies about neo-Nazism [2] -- "Chief Rabbi of Kyiv and Ukraine: There is no Ethnic or Religious Hatred in Ukraine".

[1] http://www.forumdaily.com/kak-gazeta-haaretz-perevrala-ukrai... (in Russian)

[2] http://uacrisis.org/chief-rabbi-of-kyiv-and-ukraine-there-is...

[1gor]

I think your 'Goebbels this' and 'Goebbels that' arguments are amusing.

Thanks for confirming that 5 TV channels carrying alternative views are banned in Ukraine. That's no problem for you because you call them propaganda.

Some people disagree. A lot of Ukrainians Russian-speakers feel that their point of view is not represented in Ukrainian official media, and that Russian news provide some valuable alternative. After all, one of the first laws of new Kiev govt was an anti-Russian language law.

And then in a single breath you deny neo-Nazi issue as a bullshit. You obviously know that lenta.ru editor was fired allegedly for publishing a link to Ukrainian "Right Sector" content.

Next you of may want to deny that Svoboda and their paramilitary wing Right Sector are neo-nazis... I could refer to to European Union officials expressing concern about Svoboda's position in Kiev government, but I think my arguments will be lost on you.

[adobriyan]

> I think your 'Goebbels this' and 'Goebbels that' arguments are amusing.

i'd call them what they are: clueless idiots

this video is for our wannabe freedom lovers http://oper.ru/news/read.php?t=1051613380

(in russian)

[trycatch]

> I think your 'Goebbels this' and 'Goebbels that' arguments are amusing.

Of course. Because you are completely under influence of that propaganda.

> You obviously know that lenta.ru editor was fired allegedly for publishing a link to Ukrainian "Right Sector" content.

She was fired, because Lenta became too popular and Kremlin decided to take over it.

> Thanks for confirming that 5 TV channels carrying alternative views are banned in Ukraine.

They don't hold any alternative views, or any views at all. They are just propaganda mouthpieces, their purpose is influence people in some direction -- and that's all. If they need, they straight up fabricate "news" out of thin air [1][2][3][4][5]. If they need they'll change their political "views" in day, because in fact they don't hold any. That's the difference between legitimate media, even very biased one, and just pure propaganda.

> Next you of may want to deny that Svoboda and their paramilitary wing Right Sector are neo-nazis...

Yes, they are not neo-Nazis, that's your Goebbels propaganda again, I commented about it there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7400870 However, beloved by Kremlin propaganda "people's governor" Gubarev from Donetsk was one of the neo-Nazis from RNE: http://imgur.com/a/QeuZp

[1] http://fakecontrol.org/blog/2014/03/08/tass-upolnomochien-za...

[2] http://fakecontrol.org/blog/2014/03/06/cyrillic-cancellation...

[3] http://fakecontrol.org/blog/2014/03/03/2-girls-1-fake/

[4] http://fakecontrol.org/blog/2014/03/03/vtoroi-pasport/

[5] http://fakecontrol.org/blog/2014/03/02/first_channel_geograp...