[seivan]

You want to design on iOS? Hire an engineer familiar with UIKit

Mac OS? Appkit

Web? JS,CSS & HTML.

Etc etc.

Basically only hire designers that can write their design. A .PSD isn't much value to you.

Then again I'm getting more annoyed by so called UX experts or PSD-designers as time goes.

Now, I am sure Brett who I'm quoting doesn't agree with me, but:

"…these brilliant designers could not make real things. They could only suggest. They would draw mockups in Photoshop… the designers could not produce anything that they could ship as-is. Instead, they were dependent on engineers to translate their ideas into lines of text. Even at Apple, a designer aristocracy like no other, there was always a subtle undercurrent of helplessness, and the timidity and hesitation that comes from not being self-reliant. It’s fashionable to rationalize this helplessness with talk of “complementary skill-sets” and other such bullshit. But the truth is: An author can write a book. A musician can compose a song, a [sic] animator can compose a short, a painter can compose a painting."

[crazygringo]

Please. This attitude really needs to stop -- it's insulting to designers, because it implies their design skills aren't enough, and it's insulting to programmers, because it implies programming is so trivial that a designer should just be able to pick it up. Show some respect.

If you think a PSD isn't of much value, you don't have a clue as to what design even is. It's the equivalent of a designer saying that backend architecture isn't of much value to the product, just because they don't understand it.

I know a lot of people on HN come from solely a coding background, and think design is irrelevant at best, or even harmful at worst. But in most instances, that's just pure ignorance.

Print designers can't run printing presses. Hardware designers don't know how to smelt aluminum. Everybody has a job they're good at -- let designers be good at theirs, respect it, and appreciate the fact that designing and programming are entirely different skillsets.

[seivan]

I never said programming was easy. I don't expect nor would want all software engineers to be good at design either. That be ing said, are you building front-facing products (say iOS or a front-end for a web application) you'd be better off with a software engineer who can design. Than a designer that can do photoshop mockups. Not everyone on that product team should know how to design out of the engineers.

But I am saying that designer that can't code their front-end, wether thats web or mobile, is kinda weird for 2014?

I never said design was unnecessary, I said a designer who' a single skill queen (in my world) is unnecessary. No one is advocating that design lack importance, but unless you can code the interface you design, you really don't add much value. Like an MBA with the next social media idea that will acquire a billion users in a week because it's such an amazing idea.

Implementation is the only thing that matters and ironically design is subjective enough for that.

Not to be confused with an illustrator - drawing is fuckhard.

[bennyg]

Do you also think that a mobile app programmer who can't design is a waste? They are also a one-skill queen, unable to implement and create a product.

[seivan]

No, because software is inherently hard.

[talmand]

I agree, as a front-end developer that has a design degree I feel I've somehow been insulted twice.

[mmariani]

What a load of crap. I'm a programmer, and designer. These are just skill sets that anyone with half of a good brain can learn. As usual, having a little talent helps too.

[romanovcode]

>programming is so trivial that a designer should just be able to pick it up. Show some respect.

HTML and CSS ain't no programming. You show some respect.

[raverbashing]

" An author can write a book. A musician can compose a song, a [sic] animator can compose a short, a painter can compose a painting."

Sure, an author can write a book. But to expect him to layout it is too much no? No author is expected to go learn InDesign.

A musician can compose a song and play some instrument, of course. But you can't expect him to know all instruments. Of course, she will usually compose for their most familiar instrument but not necessarily, see movie composers for example.

With painters is more complicated, they are painters because of their ability to paint more than the ability to create.

"It’s fashionable to rationalize this helplessness with talk of “complementary skill-sets” and other such bullshit"

Good, then you tell your doctor he's full of BS because he can only prescribe but not make the drugs. That he can only diagnose but he's sending you to a specialist for treatment, because of course he's calling his incompetence "complementary skill-sets"

And I just hope those developers can install and configure their OS, upgrade hardware on their computer, be proficient in kernel development, low level development, desktop development and web development otherwise they're just helpless.

[scarecrowbob]

"A musician can compose a song and play some instrument, of course. But you can't expect him to know all instruments. Of course, she will usually compose for their most familiar instrument but not necessarily, see movie composers for example."

I disagree with your point.

I'm a part-time musician and my wife programs (selects music for) several classical ensembles.

It's very important that composers and arrangers understand a lot about the instruments for which they are composing, and even more so if they have to additionally understand educational requirements or the limitations of players beyond their instruments.

To do the work, you have to understand, for instance, the ranges of instruments you compose for, as well as the difficulties imposed by the mechanics of the instrument.

To be fair, folks like Mark Mothersbaugh can hand off their basic compositions to arrangers to implement, but this is not a normal situation. Rather, most composers, especially composers of pieces for educational ensembles like my wife's are largely judge by how playable a piece is-- this is a pragmatic limitation on how good a piece can sound.

I am a pop musician, and occasionally I run into pieces that have been composed for string ensembles by people with little knowledge of the instruments for which they are writing.

As a low-rent front end developer, these pieces feel _very_ much like the "web designs" that I occasionally implement for people who generally do print design: they are missing a lot of details that I have to generate in order to make them work on the web and there are often many misqueues as far as basic things like creating usable forms and buttons.

I don't believe that anyone would maintain that you can't create good work unless you have deep formal training in every aspect of a design.

However, I my suspicions about the abilities of, say, self-taught singer-songwriters whose only instrument is guitar and who can play barely enough keyboard to input a score into finale are often confirmed.

And that happens a little less frequently than my suspicions about print-trained "web designers" are confirmed.

[raverbashing]

Well, this is an interesting topic

"To do the work, you have to understand, for instance, the ranges of instruments you compose for, as well as the difficulties imposed by the mechanics of the instrument."

True, but knowing the range is "trivial". Knowing the difficulties is much more relevant in the case of an educational program as you mention.

For example, playing C and the C one octave above on a piano is trivial, on a recorder, it's on a distinct educational level.

Sure, you can complain about print designers doing web design and I would agree, but one thing is knowing the limitations and quirks of the medium, another is knowing how to use it (sure, one comes with the other, but it's not "mandatory" that they learn that way)

" self-taught singer-songwriters whose only instrument is guitar and who can play barely enough keyboard to input a score into finale are often confirmed."

Yeah, I don't trust guitar players ;) And I didn't know Finale was still popular.

[luxstyle]

Why settle for a mediocre designer just because they also know how to write code. The same argument can be said for hiring a programmer.

"Only hire programmers that are good at product and design who can deliver a product that not only works well but looks well." This I'm sure would be ridiculed if I said it seriously.

Programming and design are very different fields and while you can find some people that are solid at both, most of the really good ones will have focused on their respective fields. So odds are you'll get a programmer that designs like crap as well as the designer that can't really code. Demanding that they be great at both seems naive.

[seivan]

This sorta feels like a defeatist attitude. "Oh it requires a different sort of a brain" and etc. Not sure I agree nor even would want to agree. It's also insulting to those who do both. I'm trying to do both (still learning)

[romanovcode]

Do you also expect bridge designers/architects to build those bridges for you?