[hiphopyo]

I don't see why people need to use Bootstrap at all. What's wrong with starting from scratch? Sure, Bootstrap has a lot of best practices you can copy / paste, but so do tons of other boilerplate projects on GitHub.

I also don't see why people need to use grids. Grids are meant for graphic design (ie. http://subtraction.com/pics/0703/grids_are_good.pdf) and architecture, not CSS. What's wrong with margins, paddings and media queries?

[sgdesign]

Not completely sure if that was serious or sarcastic, but in case that was a real question: The main reason for using a grid is to make sure elements on your page stay aligned vertically and equally distributed horizontally.

If you use separate margins and paddings for each element, there's a bigger risk that you'll mess up and introduce irregularities in the layout.

Of course, maybe you don't want elements to be aligned on your page. In that case, yes, you might not need a grid.

[hiphopyo]

Can't you just put those elements in a <div> and manipulate that instead?

[sgdesign]

I'm not sure what you think CSS grids are, but you should probably read up a little more on them…

[hiphopyo]

I take it they're preconfigured divs that clutter up your code and that are trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist given the basic nature of CSS.

If you absolutely need a grid, what about http://hashgrid.com/?

[hiphopyo]

Could you explain the downvote?

[Kudos]

I didn't downvote, but your tone is all wrong. You sound like a know it all, while also not making a strong argument against grids.

[davidw]

> I don't see why people need to use Bootstrap at all.

So you can get your product to market faster.

In many cases, stock Bootstrap ends up being fine to keep even when you're up and running, as 99% of people on the internet don't even know what Bootstrap is, or care, as long as your site works for them.

[hiphopyo]

> So you can get your product to market faster.

So basically it's for people not too familiar with HTML and CSS? Ie. like a WordPress theme?

[davidw]

Or people who are not interested in dealing with the cross platform complexities of HTML and CSS over multiple browsers, mobile, and so on when someone else has kindly solved the problem for them. Maybe they have other things to worry about such as marketing or work on the rest of the product.

[hiphopyo]

That makes sense, thank you. But for those of you who find Bootstrap a little bit overkill, do check out:

https://github.com/h5bp/mobile-boilerplate

https://github.com/paranoida/css3-media-queries-boilerplate

[k-mcgrady]

Not at all. It saves you from writing the same boilerplate code you write nearly every time you start a project. Familiarity with HTML and CSS has nothing to do with it.

[rmetzler]

Grids are used in typesetting for hundreds of years. Using grids is a best practice to enable manageable but aesthetically pleasing designs.

Grids just make it easy to talk about where to put information on the screen. People could bring their own grids, but often it's easier to just reuse what exists. This is especially true for responsive websites which need more than one fixed-size grid.

Also using a classname convention that is established by Bootstrap or any other CSS-Framework helps to switch styling without having to change a lot in the HTML code.

[hiphopyo]

Grids have been used in architecture for thousands of years.

Sure, they might come in handy when drafting your webdesigns in Adobe or whatever, but not in the CSS. Just use your eyes and basic CSS. For true responsive websites, use media queries.

As they say, "perfection is achieved, not when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away".

[baby]

I've done it both ways and it's just faster with grids. When you don't want to spend too much time in the CSS part of your website. Especially for avoiding testing it with multiple browsers, using a framework like BS is really useful.

[hiphopyo]

Good point. Thanks.

[baby]

to expand, it still feels like a hack most of the time, and I must use like 20% of all the package (form styling are very useful though). And I bet most web developers who use BS do that, but it's not really important as BS is really light and you should focus on shipping (and BS helps focusing on things that matter).

[adwf]

Bootstrap 3 is a responsive grid that uses media queries. I can trivially adjust the look of a site on desktop/tablet/mobile, all just by adding a few classes. When you add in the fact that they manage all the cross-browser/platform quirks for you, it's quite a winning proposition to use Bootstrap to start off a new site. You'll certainly end up overriding various colours, margins, etc. but that's the easiest part of CSS anyway.

[hiphopyo]

My point is that you don't need Bootstrap to use media queries. Nor to manage quirks when there are way simpler solutions available on GitHub.

These quirks are becoming less and less over time as well, as new browsers and devices start to follow the same standards, and major players are dropping support for old browsers (ie. Google is no longer supporting old versions of IE).

[chrissyb]

>I also don't see why people need to use grids.

"Discipline is a set of self imposed rules, parameters within which we operate. It is a bag of tools that allows us to design in a consistent manner from beginning to end. Discipline is also an attitude that provides us with the capacity of controlling our creative work so that it has continuity of intent throughout rather than fragmentation. Design without discipline is anarchy, an exercise of irresponsibility."

Massimo Vignelli http://www.vignelli.com/canon.pdf

I think if we continue to use the term "Web Designer" then the use of grids is more than acceptable.

In postscript I will however admit that I am a complete html novice so perhaps your point is quite valid.

[hiphopyo]

Indeed, as with my earlier link (http://subtraction.com/pics/0703/grids_are_good.pdf), I'm not arguing against grids as a design tool. I'm arguing against transferring them programatically to HTML and CSS when tools like http://hashgrid.com/ allows you to transfer them visually just fine.

People argue they need grids for their websites to be responsive, but that is not what grids are for. At least not according to Massimo Vignelli.

[chrissyb]

Thanks for the link, it was a good read.

I understand where you are coming from now. Can you suggest a good article for reading up on "gridless" responsive design?

I've just been looking at http://thatcoolguy.github.io/gridless-boilerplate/

It would be good to learn more about this philosophy.

[hiphopyo]

Interesting link. Cheers mate. Unfortunately I do not have any more info on this subject.

[ceejayoz]

> What's wrong with starting from scratch?

As a developer who's not great at design, I've seen the clear difference between a site I start from scratch and a site I start from a Bootstrap foundation. It makes a world of difference for me.

[ksmsjm]

Agree on this specially if your grid= typical 2 or 3 column layout. You must be really bad at css to fail on this.

Doing front end for 30-40 sites a year from many many diffent designers for a long time and projects with bootstrap included have cost me more time spent in the end to it look right. Also BS class names are more visual than component based that can end up with some retarded hacks when design needs an update