[joesmo]

I don't think any of this is specific to AirBnb or Uber. What is described here is just plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America), especially in regards towards black people. The black friend in the story knew this and wasn't surprised. It's only surprising to people who think this is something of the past, as if somehow people have improved and this shouldn't exist. The idea that people as a whole change, improve, and become less racist, while romantically appealing, couldn't be further from the truth.

[ggchappell]

> racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America)

A number of replies on this, but some have, I think, understated the issue.

In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth. If racism is not seen to be a problem elsewhere, then it's largely because of ethnic homogeneity, not lack of racism.

EDIT: It looks like I'm being misinterpreted here. Obviously, there is racism in the U.S. It is a huge problem. We all know this.

But the reason it might seem to be a larger problem than elsewhere is because of our unusually ethnically diverse population, not because of unusually high levels of racism. Also things like our incarceration rate -- the highest in the world, by far.

To a large extent, the political boundaries of the world are drawn along ethnic lines. Where this doesn't happen: former colonies in Africa, much of Eastern Europe after the world wars, etc., etc., you often get people killing each other. Look at the Rwandan genocide, or the mess that Yugoslavia turned into when it stopped being just Yugoslavia, or the decades of troubles between India and Pakistan, or any number of other examples, to see the result.

And then note that these kinds of things are not happening in the U.S. -- not to that extent, anyway.

[richardjordan]

How can anyone possibly believe this? Not just attacking you but genuinely I find this incomprehensible.

America is a deeply racist society. It's built on the genocide of the Native Americans who are still largely kept in poverty in virtual prison camps we insultingly call reservations, by racist policies.

The legacy of racism against African Americans is still deep and real - have you any experience as a black person in the Southern states? If so then I'll respect your opinion on that topic, but as a White person who came to the US from a different country, and then lived in Texas for a few years, the levels of racism are disgraceful.

The entire hispanic ag-business-driven immigration problem hinges on institutionalized racism.

Then we don't even touch on disparities like over-concentration of poverty in minority communities, incarceration rates, under-representation in positions of power and seniority etc.

[rayiner]

> How can anyone possibly believe this?

I don't know much about Europe, but as I look at the conflicts bubbling up in the U.K. and France over Arab immigration, I am inclined to believe the lower prevalence of racism there is more a function of less racial friction in more homogenous societies than actually lower levels of racism in the culture. As far as historical racism, I don't know if we want to compare scorecards with the continent that invented colonization and the African slave trade...

That said, my point of comparison is Asia, specifically the subcontinent. I'm ethnically Bengali (first generation immigrant), and my wife is Oregonian (her family moved there in the wagon trails), of English/Dutch ancestry. If our situations were reversed, there is no way Bengali society would have accepted my wife in the way American society has accepted me. She could move there and live there for the rest of her life and she'd always be "bideshi" (foreigner).

[ggchappell]

Yes, there is racism in America. No, I have largely not been on the receiving end of it.

But I can see that African Americans often have a tough time here.

I can also see the plight of Koreans in Japan, and Muslims in much of India, and Turks in Germany, and Kurds in Iraq, even though I am not part of any of those groups, either. Racism is everywhere. All of it is disgusting, some of it is horrifying, and much of it is significantly worse than what we see in the U.S.

[richardjordan]

Those examples are somewhat extreme and don't support the premise that the US is the least racist society anywhere. You also need to separate out complicated ethnic conflicts that are largely geopolitical in nature than racist in a conventional sense.

Also muslims in India isn't racism it's inter-religious conflict which is a fundamentally different thing.

[vezzy-fnord]

Disclaimer: Not an American.

Name me one country that wasn't founded on war and violence.

The situation with African Americans is still flawed and stratified, but has undeniably improved very significantly. Primarily in that they have equal opportunities on a federal level, although obviously social class and environment still play a big role in feasibility.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. There are sentiments against Hispanic immigrants, but the USA also has a very large and legitimate issue with illegal immigration. You can't blame everything on racism.

Incarceration rates are horrible for the entire country, no matter what way you put it. Blacks do have the highest rates, but whites aren't that far behind. It's not just a racial issue. I'd actually say that race is a fairly low concern here, rather the main one should be that the US penal system is fundamentally broken and frequently gamed by private prison corporations.

As for underrepresentation, equal opportunity should not be confused with equal representation. There are obstacles, but lower numbers alone should not be used to make such a conclusion.

[interpares]

>In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth.

Even given the institutional racism evident in things like incarceration rates and educational outcomes?

[ggchappell]

Yes.

To clarify, I'm not saying that racism is not a problem in the U.S. Certainly it is.

If other countries don't have huge number of minorities in prison, then it is because (1) they don't have huge numbers of minorities, or (2) they don't have a lot of people in prison.

But in the U.S. we have both the world's highest incarceration rate and an unusually ethnically diverse population. Add to that the racism that everyone has, and we get the kind of problems you mention.

[Dewie]

> In all honestly, I would say the U.S. is just about the least racist country on earth.

Based on what?

[crassus]

The data agrees with you. Racism is particularly weak in the anglosphere, you'll experience much more if you venture outside it: http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a...

[wyager]

> plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America)

Have you ever lived in any continental European country? As someone who has spent about half their life in northern and western Europe and the other half in America, I can tell you with 100% confidence that Europeans are, in general, more xenophobic and racist than Americans.

[richardjordan]

Having grown up in the UK, lived in many countries around the world, and now been in the US for 15 years I dispute that.

To fight anecdote with anecdote...

Moving from the UK to the US I was shocked by the pernicious levels of institutionalized racism and the undercurrent of subtle racism. It's everywhere.

There's certainly more of a veneer of tolerance here, which covers up a deep seated pathological racism, which is missing in parts of Europe, so when you experience racism in Europe it's more blatant and obvious.

What you do get a lot in Europe is a lot of discomfort with the muslim minorities - whether white, or of color - which is often falsely equated with racism (because racists are often also Islamophobic too). However it's a mistake to conflate the two. With the religious issues it's mostly a stance on the totalitarian nature of the religion and the cultural practices that adherents look to bring, which are often incompatible with accepted norms and values in those countries (particularly regarding the treatment of women).

[justin66]

> What you do get a lot in Europe is a lot of discomfort with the muslim minorities - whether white, or of color - which is often falsely equated with racism (because racists are often also Islamophobic too).

Europe has had at least one genocide over the issue recently. That's a bit more than "discomfort."

[richardjordan]

If you're referring to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, a conflict I was actually present for the start of interestingly, then that's a whole different issue and far more complicated.

[justin66]

Wow, I'm glad you explained that. You've defended your point splendidly. Superficially, the continent that had a genocide against one of its ethnic minorities would appear to be more racist and xenophobic. But if it's complicated, well, that changes everything.

[richardjordan]

Ah yes because Hacker News is the place for a thesis on modern history.

I was being polite: let me be clearer - you are wrong and your comment shows an ignorance of the facts and I suggest you actually read up on said conflicts before spouting nonsense. Better?

[wyager]

>Moving from the UK to the US I was shocked by the pernicious levels of institutionalized racism and the undercurrent of subtle racism. It's everywhere.

Would you please provide some examples?

[joesmo]

Police. Judicial system (all levels). Penal system. That's a good start.

[afterburner]

They are, but because they are mostly "comfortable" in their homogenous societies, they don't express as much fear through action as in the US. As the minority gets bigger, fear and negative action rises. I think in the US this was compounded by a lingering fear of a literal slave revolt.

In other words, it's easier to be racist but nice anyways if you don't fear the tiny minority.

[maxerickson]

The more interesting comparison might be between perception and reality within the U.S.

I would speculate that upper middle class people (who tend to have louder voices) have more egalitarian views than whatever median.

[joesmo]

Yes and I don't doubt it, but that still doesn't change the situation in America one bit. I didn't mean to imply that America is more or less racist than any other country, only that it is a defining factor of Americans, something that's hardly news to anyone living here, I should hope.

[greendata]

There is a huge issue with racism in the US but you're wrong to think it's a US problem or that it's worse in the US on average. Spend a few months in Europe, especially the east and south, and you'll quickly change your mind. Also, checkout Japan and China. Those places are in their own way at least as racist as the US is today.

Racism is a universal human problem. Humans naturally divide things into different groups and are almost "programmed" to make snap statistically unsound judgements based on a few data points which may or may not be correct. Humans are also "programmed" to want to eat sugar till they drop. These are issues where we can use our higher minds and education to alleviate if not solve.

[jfc]

>>Racism is a universal human problem.

Totally agree with this. Human beings often denigrate other people, based on relatively minor differences, with a view to elevating themselves. It is utterly childish, and yet people persist in doing it frequently.

[gizmo686]

People as a whole have been getting less racist. The only problem is that "less racist" still is not as good as many people think it is.

[afterburner]

People are also more racist than normal when their assets are on the line (aka paranoia).

[theorique]

There are financial consequences for getting this one wrong.

Research shows that if a neighborhood is "becoming more black" or "becoming more white", that has implications for property valuation. (Yes, this comes from racism, in case you were wondering.)

Who wants to be the guinea pig to wager the value of his house on diversity? (... and it's fine if you do, just be aware that it has implications)

[afterburner]

Yes, I suppose one always want to skew towards the richer in these cases, and race happens to be a commonly held indicator of wealth or lack thereof. It's two ugly things mixing together.

[theorique]

There exists a win-win equilibrium for upper class people.

It's an advantage for wealthy, educated blacks to live in mostly white neighborhoods, because it shows that they've "made it" according to the (admittedly racist) standards of success.

And it's an advantage for the white majority in such a neighborhood to have a few blacks around to demonstrate how incredibly non-racist they are.

(Obviously, the underclass (of whatever race) gets left out to dry.)

[gyepi]

As a one time wealthy, educated black person, I take offence at this characterization.

I live in mostly white neighborhoods because that's where I and my family wanted to live.

It was not to show that we had "made" it or to give the neighbors the opportunity to demonstrate their lack of racism. I think, far too often, people focus on race and don't realize that class distinctions are frequently better indicators.

On that basis, it seems quite reasonable to choose to live amongst people who are similar to me and not amongst those who aren't.

As it turns out, I'm now in South Africa and it's easier to see my point. Most of my neighbors are black or "colored" but I live near them because it's a nice neighborhood and not becuase of their race.

[tw268]

I don't get the romanticization of the under class. In poor neighborhoods, there are lots of noise, litter, and crime and few good role models. Why would you want that in your neighborhood? To prove how open-minded you are?

[tw268]

Property values could be tracking some other changing variable, like crime rates.

[rayiner]

The difference is that you can sue Hyatt if you are discriminated against, which keeps people in line. It's very difficult to sue AirBnB for the actions of a host.

[spikels]

You could sue the host. But that violates the rule that you only sue people with money. There are not many but this is one disadvantage of wealth.

[rayiner]

It doesn't matter whether the host is rich or not. One of the key ways of proving a discrimination claim is to show a pattern of action, which calls into doubt the host's pretextual reasons for denying service. Much harder to do that with an individual than a business.

[wtvanhest]

This is a tangent to your point, but if I remember correctly you are an attorney so I replied to you thinking you may no more about this, but even if it is racist, I doubt it is illegal.

The fair housing act definitely doesn't protect short term renters staying in someone's home.

"The Fair Housing Act applies to landlords renting or leasing space in their primary residence only if the residence contains living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by three or more other families living independently of each other, such as an owner-occupied rooming house."

[rayiner]

I'm not a civil rights attorney and this is not legal advice, yada yada. You're referring to the exemption in 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(2), which says: "Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to . . . rooms or units in dwellings containing living quarters occupied or intended to be occupied by no more than four families living independently of each other, if the owner actually maintains and occupies one of such living quarters as his residence."

I.e. it doesn't apply to my parents renting out their basement apartment. However, many properties on AirBnB do not meet the requirements for this exception because the other does not make the property his residence. Under 42 U.S.C. § 3603(b)(1), a single family house is not excluded from the act (after December 31, 1969), if the rental is achieved through the "use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings . . . ." I don't know if AirBnB falls within that (broad) language (see subsection (c)), but if it does, it would be illegal to discriminate in the renting of a house you own for the purpose of renting it out on AirBnB (which is becoming more common).

In any case, my point is that when you are discriminated against by a hotel, at least you have legal recourse. As you point out, unless an AirBnB host has a property he owns for the purpose of renting out, you don't even have that.

[theorique]

The idea that people as a whole change, improve, and become less racist, while romantically appealing, couldn't be further from the truth.

Well, some things improve. We don't have slavery or Jim Crow laws any more.