[wyager]

> plain racism, something that's blatant all over America (some might say, it's what defines America)

Have you ever lived in any continental European country? As someone who has spent about half their life in northern and western Europe and the other half in America, I can tell you with 100% confidence that Europeans are, in general, more xenophobic and racist than Americans.

[richardjordan]

Having grown up in the UK, lived in many countries around the world, and now been in the US for 15 years I dispute that.

To fight anecdote with anecdote...

Moving from the UK to the US I was shocked by the pernicious levels of institutionalized racism and the undercurrent of subtle racism. It's everywhere.

There's certainly more of a veneer of tolerance here, which covers up a deep seated pathological racism, which is missing in parts of Europe, so when you experience racism in Europe it's more blatant and obvious.

What you do get a lot in Europe is a lot of discomfort with the muslim minorities - whether white, or of color - which is often falsely equated with racism (because racists are often also Islamophobic too). However it's a mistake to conflate the two. With the religious issues it's mostly a stance on the totalitarian nature of the religion and the cultural practices that adherents look to bring, which are often incompatible with accepted norms and values in those countries (particularly regarding the treatment of women).

[justin66]

> What you do get a lot in Europe is a lot of discomfort with the muslim minorities - whether white, or of color - which is often falsely equated with racism (because racists are often also Islamophobic too).

Europe has had at least one genocide over the issue recently. That's a bit more than "discomfort."

[richardjordan]

If you're referring to the conflict in the former Yugoslavia, a conflict I was actually present for the start of interestingly, then that's a whole different issue and far more complicated.

[justin66]

Wow, I'm glad you explained that. You've defended your point splendidly. Superficially, the continent that had a genocide against one of its ethnic minorities would appear to be more racist and xenophobic. But if it's complicated, well, that changes everything.

[richardjordan]

Ah yes because Hacker News is the place for a thesis on modern history.

I was being polite: let me be clearer - you are wrong and your comment shows an ignorance of the facts and I suggest you actually read up on said conflicts before spouting nonsense. Better?

[justin66]

Well, no, your comment is equally information-free as the two that proceeded it. "Things are the way I say they are because I say so" remains unpersuasive.

Look, the whole notion of assigning moral value to places based on an arbitrary measure of "racism and xenophobia" is annoying, and if you think that's what's going here maybe you're understandably annoyed. But it feels like you're not even trying to understand what we're actually talking about, and more importantly, it actually IS important that we have measures for social progress if we are to continue to improve. I hope you'd agree.

So, the thing is: it'd be interesting to know what measure you're using such that a place with "institutionalized racism and the undercurrent of subtle racism" (undeniably true! of the US or, one suspects, anywhere else!) is somehow to be regarded as more "racist and xenophobic" than a place where a genocide occurred in one nation against an ethnic minority while its neighbor nations looked on uselessly. If you regard "subtle racism," income inequality, criminal justice problems, social rudeness and so on as a greater problem than that, well... okay, say so. It's obviously ridiculous.

[wyager]

>Moving from the UK to the US I was shocked by the pernicious levels of institutionalized racism and the undercurrent of subtle racism. It's everywhere.

Would you please provide some examples?

[joesmo]

Police. Judicial system (all levels). Penal system. That's a good start.

[afterburner]

They are, but because they are mostly "comfortable" in their homogenous societies, they don't express as much fear through action as in the US. As the minority gets bigger, fear and negative action rises. I think in the US this was compounded by a lingering fear of a literal slave revolt.

In other words, it's easier to be racist but nice anyways if you don't fear the tiny minority.

[maxerickson]

The more interesting comparison might be between perception and reality within the U.S.

I would speculate that upper middle class people (who tend to have louder voices) have more egalitarian views than whatever median.

[joesmo]

Yes and I don't doubt it, but that still doesn't change the situation in America one bit. I didn't mean to imply that America is more or less racist than any other country, only that it is a defining factor of Americans, something that's hardly news to anyone living here, I should hope.