[darkbot]

Wow, some this is some epic propaganda.

Closer to truth is that this is more a coup-d'etat by the Ukrainian fascist paramilitary. The liberal Ukrainian opposition has been chased out of greater parts of the Maidan square and is now in control of "Right Sector", a loosely based umbrella coalition between various fascist and nazi organisations and parties. These extremist wants to ignite a civil war to "cleanse Ukraine from all Russian elements". Pretty scary shit, regarding that a lot of people in Ukraine has Russian as their main language.

The media has mainly filtered this out so far, because they favor anything that destabilize Ukraina in fear of Russia.

I wish that western media would stop feed a biased and false view of what's really happening in Ukraine. Right now their a fueling a fire that could get out of hand with disastrous results.

The current situation is in dire need of de-escalation.

Here are few rare articles that's shedding some light in to the situation:

Ukraine: far-right extremists at core of 'democracy' protest http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests...

Ukrainian far-right group claims to be co-ordinating violence in Kiev http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/23/ukrainian-far-r...

Far-right extremists staged a paramilitary funeral for shot Ukrainian protester (and the media didn't notice) http://imgur.com/a/LSvOk

EDIT: There is a lot of unfounded rumors about the government cracking down on the protestors in Ukraine on Twitter. There's also a lot of old images, videos and news that are being recirculated that does not reflect the current situation. Please, double or triple check facts and sources before retweeting any (dis)info.

EDIT2: No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I think either regime is equally corrupted.

[vdaniuk]

As a Russian speaking Ukrainian, participating in protests, living in Kiev that considers this quote by Albert Einstein to be very true "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind", you are so full of shit.

[shitgoose]

Would you dare to go to Lvov these days and speak Russian there, your native language?

[dimitar]

I have been to Lviv and its perfectly OK to use Russian or any other language for that matter. You can often even hear Russian pop hits on the streets.

I think this misconception stems from the fact that Ukrainian speakers often reply in Ukrainian when spoken to in Russian, because they assume you know both languages, but they will switch to Russian if necessary. This freaks out Russian speakers from outside of Ukraine.

[strlen]

> I think this misconception stems from the fact that Ukrainian speakers often reply in Ukrainian when spoken to in Russian, because they assume you know both languages, but they will switch to Russian if necessary. This freaks out Russian speakers from outside of Ukraine.

This is interesting way to think of it. Since I'm from Belarus and visited Ukraine a few times, I thought absolutely nothing of this. I even remember going to a Polish-owned cafe in Minsk where the owners spoke Polish, but customers spoke Russian. In Belarus children were taught Belarusian from kindergarten on and while Belarusian language, literature, and history classes were in Belarusian -- other classes were in Russian. Afaik, some of the Belarusian writers (can't remember if Yakub Kolas, Yanka Kupala or both...) even changed languages within their books: within the same story, some characters spoke Russian others spoke Belarusian. Of course Ukrainian speakers form a much larger part of population of Ukraine than Belarusian speakers in Belarus (Belarusian seems to be heading the way of Irish Gaelic, unfortunately).

It helps that the languages are in the same language group. In any case, other European countries deal with this all the time (Flemish and French are much further apart for example than Russian and Ukranian). I can't see how joining the EU would make this worse for anyone!

[avasylev]

These protest are against Yankukovich and his regime. Not against Russians. A lot of activists on maidan speak Russian, including Klichko who speaks Russian better than Ukrainian. Plus Lvov is very popular among Russian tourists, still no one was hurt.

[strlen]

Not to mention Yuschenko (the former Yanukovich opponent) himself spoke Russian at home and was Orthodox.

[vdaniuk]

Certainly yes. There is no or very little aggression towards Russian speakers in Lvov.

[gkoz]

Done that and (not surprisingly) nobody cared and nothing happened.

[cLeEOGPw]

Just a heads up for those not accustomed to Russian propaganda - in Russia and neighbor countries Russia wages a massive propaganda war against EU and currently it's largest target is EuroMaidan. Their purpose is to put as much dirt on the protesters as possible. The propaganda is especially active in internet comments and forums. They often make long and semi written in advance post with link to Russian government controlled sources to sound more legitimate.

Source: I am from a country neighbor to Russia.

[jjcc]

Here are a couple of links that support your opinion. Unfortunately most people here might not be aware that western media is quite biased.

http://orientalreview.org/2014/01/24/coup-in-western-ukraine...

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/01/libya-syria-and-now-ukr...

Dear fellow hackers, media is "The Matrix" regardless it's from democratic western countries , or Russia, China, North Korea. Ironically most western people believe they have know more truth because their journalists are independent. It's quite deceptive.

[sgift]

Every media, as long as media is made by humans, will be biased. The only choice you have is to search the bias you know, so you can use your brain to fix the information you were fed.

Example: Every time I read something about left/right wing politics on HN I try to check if the commenter is from the US. If he is I apply a "mental filter" which allows me (as an European) to better understand him (what people from the US consider "central" falls under "right wing" policies in my mind). Without that filter political discussions on HN would be pretty useless for me (actually that was the case until I had read enough to understand this particular bias).

You have to do this with every source, otherwise you will always be fooled. Back to the current case: I am not able to distill your sources, because I have no idea what their bias is. At least with most western media I know that they usually tend do favor the "non-government" side in conflicts of people vs government.

[mercurial]

Your sources don't support your narrative. What they are claiming is that you have a presence of violent right-wing elements among the protesters, in some non-determinate numbers, and that they are organized. Point taken. G8 demonstrations features Black Block elements with depressing regularity. Are G8 demonstrations also an attempt at a coup by Black Block supporters?

[dimitar]

The black and red flags are symbols of OUN-UPA - a WWII era insurgent army that fought both the Nazis and the USSR. Many different groups, parties and individuals use these very general symbols. They represent the Ukrainian struggle for independence, not a racist or anti-semitic agenda.

[darkbot]

OUN-UPA collaborated with the occupying nazi-Germany forces and are responsible for massacres and ethnic cleansing. That's a historical fact.

[dimitar]

That is incorrect, OUN-UPA couldn't have collaborated with them because because it pronounced an independent Ukraine as soon as the Nazis invaded the USSR. The Nazis immediately arrested the members they could find and insurgency against them began immediately.

Please take a look at the flags at the bottom of this 40s UPA propaganda: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7e/UPA.jpg

[strlen]

> No, I am not Ukranian, nor Russian. Also I don't support either side. I think either regime is equally corrupted.

I am sorry, but as an ethnically Jewish, Belarusian-born, Russian-speaker residing in US, I have to say what you're engaging in is the equivalent of "mansplaining" (EDIT: or "patronizing" if you prefer).

To wit, on my Facebook, the only person who is presently in Ukraine (who attended school and a university in US before moving back to Ukraine after graduation) is also Jewish, takes his Jewish roots far more seriously than I do (he had his icons set to the Israeli flag a multiple times), and is posting protest related pictures, and reposting _Russian language_ messages like "My dad was seized by Berkut. Are there any lawyers here that can help out?"

In terms of Ukrainian-Americans posting on this that I know none shown any signs of ultra nationalism and have plenty of Jewish, Russian, and other former-USSR friends in US, and in terms of religion happen to include agnostic, Orthodox (Western Ukraine has a larger Catholic presence as it was part of Poland and Austro-Hungarian Empire), and a Muslim.

Here's an article on this, by the way, about Jewish community's view of this: http://www.jta.org/2013/12/08/news-opinion/world/young-jews-...

(I tend to note that Passionate Americans That Know Everything Because They Read it On the Internet Somehow are going to likely 'splain this way with a Zionist conspiracy -- in a language very similar to what ultranationalists themselves use, ironically -- but Israel itself generally takes a "realpolitik" approach to these kinds of situations and the Israeli _government_ has made no statements).

My personal view of this is the extent to which the Western Media is under-reporting this story (and in my view they are: this has rarely, for example, come up on my Yahoo News pager which is generally syndicated from mainstream sources) is playing into the hands of ultra-nationalists. Keep in mind that Ukraine is far from the only country in Europe to have ultra-nationalist voted in as part genuine views and part protest votes: Golden Dawn in Greece had far greater electoral results and is far scarier, there's also Jobbik in Hungary, BNP in UK, National Front in France, and so on...

It is very much in Russia's interest to make sure ultra-nationalists become the dominant party in this: should the leader of Svoboda run against Yanukovich, the result would be a land-slide for Yanukovich. The best analogue for this is actually probably when David Duke (a KKK leader, anti-Semite, the full nine yards) ran for governor of Lousiana against a known crook (the bumper stickers were "vote for the crook, it's important"). He received many votes as a protest, but it would be insane to think his views represented the mainstream conservative US politics (he ran as a republican party candidate, but his opponent was endorsed by the republican party).

I should also note that generally in former USSR "right" doesn't mean what it means in US: the political spectrum there is best describes as a circle: mix of left-wing and right-wing liberals on one end (a spectrum between those who favour a Scandanvian-style welfare state and those leaning towards classical liberalism -- essentially the entire US/UK/Canada would simply be called "liberalism" in former USSR) and a "red-brown alliance" on the other.

I'd also add that Svoboda is actually very much anti-EU (again not much different from other far-right morons in Europe) and realistically speaking, should they come to power in any shape or form (they will never win a democratic election), they'll be overthrown far quicker than you can say "faster than Morsi/Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt". Since anti-Nazism is a very strong unifying theme between Russia and Western Europe, no one will actually tolerate a neo-Nazi state in Europe.

[elohesra]

Can we please drop this 'mansplaining' bullshit? It's as offensive as referring to feelings of being othered as 'girlfeeling'. These kinds of sordid, petty, gendered derogations have no place on HN. There is literally no need for an insultingly sexist synonym for 'patronizing', when 'patronizing' already exists as a less offensive (and better understood) equivalent.

It's a shame really, because you've clearly taken the time to write a well structured and thoughtful response to the parent, and the use of that sexist slur in the first line sets a terrible tone for the rest of the comment.

[strlen]

I see what you're you're trying to say, but as a man (who was introduced to this term by a girlfriend who caught me 'splaining myself) I personally find the term to be both hilarious and -- most importantly to -- somewhat more explicit in what it is (explaining away while lacking context) as opposed to the term patronizing. Then again English is not my native language, so perhaps I'm reading the word "patronizing" too literally here.

[elohesra]

I can see that you clearly meant no harm, but the problem with the term is that it creates divide between men and women where there need not be one. It attempts to gender the concept of being clueless and patronizing solely with men. For this reason, it is clearly sexist, and I'm uncomfortable with sexist language being bandied around.

I fail to see what good can ever come of using language that would cause division among people, when there are other ways of communicating the same concept just as effectively. Of course, speech should remain free and should you wish to use the word then that should be your right, but use it knowing that -- for people like me -- it not only offends, but immediately lessens your credibility.

EDIT: Sorry, that comes off as a little hostile, but that word pissed me off. Still, you don't deserve any particular rage since your explanation shows you clearly meant nothing by it and didn't realize it'd offend.

[darkbot]

> It is very much in Russia's interest to make sure ultra-nationalists become the dominant party in this

Honest question: How is this in Russia's interest? The paramilitary UNA­-UNSO helped fighting the Russian military in both the Abkhazian and the Chechnya conflicts, according to their own account.

[strlen]

For the same reason David Duke winning the Republican primary would be in Democrats' interest and for the same interest Russia's Duma includes very few liberals but lots of communists and "red-browns". Given a choice between corrupt pro-Russian parties and ultra-nationalists/un-reformed communists/fascists/etc..., vast majority of Ukranians would vote for pro-Russian parties ("lesser of the two evils").

Think logically: if you're a corrupt stooge, would you rather run a less corrupt stooge (I don't have any illusions here -- Yuschenko/Timoshenko/Klichko are no saints, they are just better than the alternative) or against an ultranationalist?

[darkbot]

That JTA article is almsot 2 months old. A lot has changed since then. A lot has changed just in the last 5 days.

[strlen]

The politics here, however, is far older than two months. Participation by my Russian-speaking Jewish friend is current as of today and the Russian language message I mentioned is from January 23rd (four day old).