[jack-r-abbit]

Right now it is noon in St. Louis and 19 degrees.

Right now it is 10:00 in SF and 53 degrees.

I think weather plays a large part in why people like to live in the Bay Area. Many refer to the high cost of living here as the "sun tax." As I sit in my office wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I can't even fathom living in St. Louis.

[zinssmeister]

"sun tax" is cheaper in Texas. It's zero as in 0% income tax.

[jtreminio]

It's currently 30F in my hometown of Allen.

During the summer it is not uncommon to have over 100 days of 100F+.

You do not want to be outside during that heat.

Oh, plus we've had a drought for years and years that has dried up most of our lakes to a shadow of their former sizes.

[rebelidealist]

There is a hefty sun burn tax in Texas. 100 degree weather for sometimes 30 straight days. May - Sept are all 90 degrees+ without fail. The winter is colder than the bay area.

[zinssmeister]

I lived in both states and the weather in the Bay Area isn't enough to justify the heavy income tax, sales tax and cost of housing. It's great that it's in the 60s and 70s year round but with zero rain fall you got other cons making up for pros in that category. Sure Texas is hot and that is a downside but agreeing that the weather in the Bay Area is worth an insane amount of extra cash isn't correct.

[_delirium]

If you have large housing needs (family/etc.) I can see that, but as a single person renting I didn't find the pricing difference large enough to be worth choosing Texas just for the housing savings. Paid about $700/mo to rent a 1-bd in Houston, vs $1100 to rent a nicer 1-bd in Santa Cruz, near the beach. Sure, that's almost $5k savings over a year in Houston, but you're not going to retire on an extra $5k. Well more like $4k savings overall once you take into account the extra electric bill I had in Houston, running the A/C for 7-8 months of the year.

[wavefunction]

30 days? The summer before last was 90+ days of 100+ F temps. This is Austin, TX, I'm speaking of.

[mjn]

The average property tax rate is 4x California's, though. On the other hand, the average property value is lower. How all those factors combine depends on your income/location/etc. The group that comes out worst is the middle class in cheaper areas, around 40th-70th percentile incomes. If you make mid 5 figures, and live in a $150k house, your tax situation would be better Bakersfield than in Houston.

[saryant]

For single-income household of two making $55k, the annual difference shakes out to about $500. Not an insignificant sum but also not a huge difference.

But your comparison is between Bakersfield, a medium-sized city whose largest employer is Kern County, and Houston, the world capital of energy and a major player in shipping, healthcare and aerospace.

Which city is more likely to actually pan out a $55k job for our hypothetical middle-class family? Houston (median income, $58k) or Bakersfield ($38k)? Where is that barely higher tax burden buying better schools? (I'll take any of Houston's suburbs on that count)

I grew up all over California but I've lived in Texas for the last nine years, I've seen the difference. Texas certainly isn't perfect but our cities are actually affordable.

[mahyarm]

The price of a house usually translates into how much the monthly/annual payments are for the house since it directly effects the demand curve. Up property tax prices and house values go correspondingly down. Up average incomes, house prices go up, etc. Decrease interest rates enough and housing prices can go up significantly.

[zinssmeister]

and if you make 6 figures your income tax alone would make for a mortgage payment in Texas. Property Tax in Cali is also pretty messed up with people paying almost nothing because they inherited their home from their parents along with their tax rate from the 60s.

[seanmcdirmid]

Washington State has a 0% income tax, though maybe not as much sun in the winter (if living in Seattle). And its not Texas.

[techsupporter]

Housing costs in WA can't hold a candle to Texas. The median home price in King County (where Seattle is located, for those who are unaware) is $415,000. Median home price in Dallas County is just a tad under $200,000. To get that in King County, you have to be all the way down in Federal Way or Auburn, both of which are so far out you'll need a car (so you get to sit on IH-5 for days) and you might as well not even try to have a social life in Seattle.

If you want a house in or that has access to the trendy area of Seattle, be prepared to cough up anywhere from $300,000 to $600,000 (median is $619k but I assume some folks will buy a smaller house or one that needs a bunch of work to get the price down).

[seanmcdirmid]

415k is median...federal way and auburn are still below that. You can do better than ok with $400k in Seattle if you are willing to go condo.

Texas has bad schools, high Crome, dumpster divers everywhere. Washington state is a first world country in comparison. Even some boondocks place like Spokane where houses still go for $150k compares well to Texas (though the tech jobs are all in Seattle).

[techsupporter]

My point was that "better than OK with $400k" will get you a mansion in Dallas' northern suburbs or a very nice rambler with a pool inside Dallas itself, not a condo with an $800/mo maintenance fee. I'm not bagging on condos, either, but not everyone wants to live in one, plus the better ones in Seattle are getting picky about who can buy. It floored me to see an ad for a condo saying "no dogs." (Who bans dogs in Seattle? That has to be a recipe for disaster.)

You're 100% right that you can find cheaper housing in Auburn, Federal Way (mind the gunshots), Everett, or even Spokane. The problem is that living in none of those places gets you the walkable, diverse lifestyle of being in Seattle.

Also, thanks for painting all Texas schools with such a broad brush. I graduated from a north Texas (public, non-charter) high school that is well-ranked, in addition to graduating from a state college for my CSCI degree. My siblings came after me through the same school, one as recently as 5 years ago, and none of us are drooling founts of stupidity who can barely sign our own names. It's almost as though different areas have different levels of achievement in their schools.

[seanmcdirmid]

$800/month in maintenance fees? Are you joking or exaggerating, or are you trying to justify your McMansion preference with hyperbole?

My experience of Texas was all in Austin, maybe that is a lower end city compared to Dallas? Not sure, but I was amazed by the poverty versus the worst places I know of in Washington state (where I'm native).

[saryant]

Texas has simultaneously some of the best and worst schools everywhere, like most states. I spent two years in a CA high school and two years in a TX high school and the difference was worlds apart—the CA school was a joke. Falling apart, horrid teachers paid below the poverty line, huge drug and violence issues. All AP classes have been cut.

The Texas school, conversely, was a palace of education. Better in every way. Highly-paid teachers, actual funding for extracurriculars, buildings that weren't condemned. Four years of computer science classes.

Are there bad schools in Texas? Absolutely. But the fact is (unfair as it may be) that in the areas a software developer is likely to live, the schools are fantastic.

[Kurtz79]

New York and especially London are not exactly known for their sunny weather and yet have an housing market similar to that of SF...

I'm not saying it's not a factor, but I think there are more important ones.

[jack-r-abbit]

Yes. Other factors as well. I just said a large part... not the only or the largest. Another one is that you are not more than a couple hours from snow (assuming we're not having a drought like right now), the beach and the forest. I'm sure other places enjoy this diversity of nature as well... but we do have it pretty good here.

[Kurtz79]

Of course, there is no denying that the area is great, I lived in the Valley for a few months and loved it.

[ashwinaj]

I would also add that people the bay area in general, have a "let's get it done" attitude. In the south and mid west people are a lot more laid back and generally more interested in football, Bud light/Miller light/Coors light and liberal bashing rather than putting in all-nighters. It was an eye opening change when I moved to the SF bay area.

I maybe an exception to the stereotypical software engineer, but I work best around motivated people rather than people who are laid back all the time.

[thecoffman]

Wow, not only is this an entirely ignorant and untrue stereotype; it implies that putting in all-nighters for your job is a good thing which I think its fairly universally regarded as untrue.

[ashwinaj]

Well you better read my post again. I said "generally", not all of them are like that. Also the assumption is if you're putting all-nighters there is some reward in the end (money, stocks, recognition etc.). IMO I get more done during all-nighters than during the day and I'm not the only one in my team who does that.

[thecoffman]

Saying "generally" doesn't make it not ignorant or not a stereotype - in fact I'm pretty sure its just the opposite. "Generally, people in the midwest are beer swilling, liberal bashing layabouts" is pretty much the definition of a stereotype...

There is certainly nothing wrong with working at a time of day which is most productive for you, but the implication was that midwesterners were generally unwilling to put in a bunch of extra hours to "get it done." Not that they frowned upon people who liked to work at night.

I would argue, pretty strongly, that the culture of "kill yourself working a billion hours a week for your startup" is unhealthy physically, socially and mentally. Sure there is an outside chance that you hit it big and get fabulously wealthy. In the mean-time you pass up tons of actual real-life salary, benefits and vacation time that are tangible, usable, and increase your quality of life today. (Not to mention an actual retirement account, which most startups seems to neglect.)

[ashwinaj]

We cannot have an honest conversation since whatever I say is pigeon-holed to a stereotype. You might as well live in the mid west for a while and find out for yourself vs SV. In life, no one hands you a bunch of money for nothing. No startup guarantees anything, I assume most people are fully grown adults who are able to make rational choices fit for them. You can make your own choices in life and live with it and take responsibility.

[protomyth]

Not my experience. We may look laid back, but a lot of folks in the Midwest grew up around "get it done now" jobs. I see the attitude keeps even in other jobs not as time critical. It's a learned habit.

Out of politeness I'll leave you beer, etc. comments alone.

[belovedlasher]

Woah woah. As a St. Louisian, I'd like to point out that we have an amazing selection of craft breweries.

As for the other statements, come to a hackathon or a Startup Weekend and see how motivated we really are.

[eliteraspberrie]

In the Toronto area this week, temperatures are about -20 degrees Celsius (-4 F) with 40-60 km/h (25-40 mph) wind. ;)

[protomyth]

Cold winters always gave me time to do more coding so I could enjoy the summer more, but I'm in North Dakota these days so I might have a odd view of cold.

[mitchty]

I really don't get the aversion to cold weather either. It is part of the reason us "northerners" read so much.

When it gets to -24F out, aka you can get frostbite underneath clothes, you tend to say well lets just sit inside and do stuff or read/etc...

Cold isn't bad, cold+wind, that is the killer. I met a woman from socal that moved here recently. It was about 20F out and all I had on was a sweater. She looked like she was going to go for a recreation of Shackletons expedition. Granted I might be a bit crazy but cold really isn't that big of a deal. Look at the Buddhist monks that dry off wet towels on their shoulders in subzero weather.

But, if it keeps out the riffraff eh, I'll keep it.

[protomyth]

Yep, cold + wind is what kills you. I've always said North Dakota is quite good at killing the stupid or unlucky[1]. Oil has brought a lot of people from southern states and I worry a lot about their safety. This weekend we should hit -26F before wind chill off a 20-30 mph wind. Good time to stay in and code.

1) for the love of what you hold holy do not go too fast on icy roads (that means you SUV driver). One unlucky moment like sliding a foot or two in front of a semi will be it. Don't leave that as an Xmas present.

[csdreamer7]

Why Toronto? Why not Vancouver? I've never been to Canada but they do seem to have a growing tech scene.

[HorizonXP]

I've been living in Palo Alto for the last year, and I'm moving back to Toronto next week to bootstrap my own startup. The weather has been making me think twice!

[btgeekboy]

Heh, and around that time, it was in the high 60s here in Southern California. Sure, we don't have enough water to sustain ourselves, but it's winter and shorts weather.

[icantthinkofone]

So, when it's early evening and cold in SF but warm and sunny in St. Louis, you'll reconsider in one night?