[onion2k]

A few months on a very low wage (that is what the $20k is for..), away from your friends and family, living in a tiny apartment is nothing compared to working on something you feel exceptionally passionate about.

Chances are you'll never find that problem. Most people don't. Those problems are rare, and solutions to them rarer still. But that's fine. If you have a business idea that you're keen on but don't want to give months away from your family or accept a huge drop in income for, bootstrapping is the right way to go. But that doesn't mean investment is always for chumps. For the few that do find a problem that they live to solve, making the tremendous sacrifices at the beginning is worth it, even if other people get rich off your efforts. Your friends, family, investors and humanity as a whole is better for it.

[cookiecaper]

There's nothing wrong with other people getting rich off your success, as long as the ratios of wealth are commensurate with the value provided. This is very rarely the case in typical investment scenarios.

I have less respect for the man that lives to introduce the greatest SaaS platform ever built than I have for the man that lives to see that his home and family is well provided for.

Most grown-ups making grown-up wages can easily infuse 20k into their own businesses. Persons with that passion typically exercise a modicum of discipline and save up for a while before they decide to live on a shoestring. They don't need YC's help to do that, it happens among entrepreneurs the world over every day. And they get to keep 100% of their companies, and even get to continue living in their own houses!

Like I said, if you have no permanent responsibilities and no dependents and think it'd be cool to live in an apartment in SF on $200/wk for a while, be my guest, that's totally fine with me if that's what you want to do. But it's simply not realistic for any adult with permanent responsibilities, no matter how passionate they are. If such a person allowed his "passion" to override his obligations to provide, there'd be a good abandonment case against him. This kind of irresponsibility is simply not allowed when you're an adult with dependents.

Please do not attempt to twist this into "anyone who isn't willing to abandon his responsibilities is just not a passionate founder!" That's typical investor FUD and it's not constructive. It's an absurd ad-hominem.

Perhaps the problem is that we have not all become as morally decrepit as the investors that would claim we lack passion merely because we seek first to care for our wives and children. I'd say the man who provides for his family while bootstrapping a business all on his own has a good deal more passion, in more important areas, than the man who abandons his dependents to pretend like he's 21 again and live off pizza and ramen in a SF loft on a one-in-a-million shot while his family is left without his emotional, physical, and financial support.

[hhw]

Having permanent responsibilities and dependents means you have much less time to work on your startup, thus reducing your probability for success. Why should investors be interested in higher risk without a commensurate higher return? Obviously, there are other factors involved, but this is a very significant one.

[cookiecaper]

Because there is a commensurate higher return. The founder's family provides a mechanism to enforce a decent work-life balance and provide for the founder's emotional needs. There is also a high likelihood that founders with real dependents and obligations are more realistic, mature, and serious than founders without these things. Realism, maturity, and seriousness are all desirable traits in entrepreneurs.

[hhw]

Who's to say that a founder without a family will not posses realism, maturity, or seriousness. If anything, I would turn it around and say that being a founder and having a family is like trying to have your cake and eat it too, which is not realistic. Delayed gratification is one of the prevailing signs of maturity, and postponing settling down and starting a family until after establishing a business would be a clear example of it. And someone who consistently works very long hours is if anything serious.

We can argue these points all day, but the reality is, unless you can provide evidence that founders with families possess these attributes in measurably greater quantities, and with statistically significant higher probability of success, whether or not having a family is an asset or not in achieving success with a startup is purely subjective.

On the other hand, the number of available working hours, and how more work will result in greater likelihood of success is pretty objective. There may be diminishing returns as the number of hours increase, but at least up to a pretty high point, those returns will still be positive.

[cookiecaper]

On the delayed gratification note, there are a couple of points. First, not everyone knows that they are going to be starting a business in the short-term when they have children. Second, there is a very real biological countdown in place for child-bearing and child-rearing. Our bodies do much better when the parents of the children are in their 20s and 30s. Many who delay their families find that they're limited by age-related implications. There are no such biological countdowns on entrepreneurship, and founders' experience, and therefore value, only increases as they age (until the point where dementia or other debilitating mental conditions become a serious possibility, but for most people that's well past retirement age). From a lifelong perspective, if you intend to have children, it's more intelligent to prioritize reproduction and delay your gratification for entrepreneurship.

Furthermore, family life teaches much more about delayed gratification than single 20-something life. If your argument is that entrepreneurs should show maturity through delayed gratification, the college kid really does not want to go up against the family man.

As to your point that the availability of excessive numbers of working hours and lack of work-life balance is superior, I think there are many who'd disagree. I don't feel compelled to cite a bunch of literature at the moment, but suffice it to say that slave-driving is not considered effective management, and workaholics are not considered healthy people.

[beat]

There are important, valuable problems that simply aren't visible to the inexperienced kids that the current model wants working on startups. My own idea for a startup was the result of two decades of experience in the software industry and many years of seeing specific pain for myself and across the industry. I wouldn't have thought of it back in '94 when I was starting my career. And by the time I could see the problem (much less see a solution), I pretty much had the kids and the mortgage.

[jnardiello]

Only someone who doesn't have family could say: "A few months on a very low wage (that is what the $20k is for..), away from your friends and family, living in a tiny apartment is nothing compared to working on something you feel exceptionally passionate about."

Do you have small children? If so, can you try to imagine how difficult could be to miss the first words or first steps of your baby? Can you imagine what could mean to simply drop everything on the shoulder of your wife? Your comment is so superficial.

[argonaut]

Why do we always have to assume we're talking about small children? If that's a concern, wait until your children grow up to be teenagers before you leave for 3 months for YC.

[cookiecaper]

Do teenagers not need fathers? I understand what you're saying, but the point is that it's silly to set up a false dichotomy between entrepreneurship and family and attempt to force the entrepreneur to choose. I believe that the startup community is much poorer because of the tendency to do this, and I'm extremely suspicious of anyone who'd advocate it.

[argonaut]

Is it so hard to be away for 3 months?

Doing a startup instead of taking a stable job involves tradeoffs, like all choices. How much of a tradeoff you take depends on you. You can move your entire family to the Bay Area, with the tradeoffs that entails (uprooting family, more expensive housing). You can move to the Bay for 3-4 months with the intention of permanently setting up the startup back home, with its own tradeoffs (farther from investors, farther from mentors, 3-4 months away from family). Etc. etc. etc.

There is no false dichotomy. There is no free lunch. Stop making these narrow generalizations.

[cookiecaper]

There is a false dichotomy. Not asking for a free lunch. I think these are real concerns for entrepreneurs with dependents. Is it possible to be away for 3 months? Sure, it's possible, but almost everyone in this group, entrepreneurs with dependents, will tell you it's not worth it for the kind of terms that are being offered, and that it shouldn't be necessary to leave the family behind in order to start a business. It creates a great deal of strain to leave your family for that long, and the rewards need to be obviously worthwhile to justify it. In my estimation, and afaict, the estimation of almost all others in my peer group, the current startup programs do not make this tradeoff obviously worthwhile. And, for the third time, I think the bigger loss is on the side of the startup ecosystem when they create programs that are hostile to mature founders.

I guess it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't been in the predicament.

[argonaut]

You're right that I haven't personally been in that predicament.

But you haven't seen, as I've seen (as an employee), the huge value of YC and the meetings I've had with YC founders who had families (including one with a young child).

You haven't explained why what you said is not asking for a free lunch. Why is it that there aren't/shouldn't be tradeoffs? Either you move to YC or you don't do YC. Tradeoffs ensue. You yourself are arguing that the tradeoffs aren't worth it. Okay, they aren't worth it for you. The tradeoffs just don't make sense for your personal tolerance level.

Having children involves tradeoffs at all levels of your life. Tradeoffs in working hours. Tradeoffs in social activity. Tradeoffs in mobility. You accept those tradeoffs, for a certain time period, when you decide to start a family. The fact is those tradeoffs exist. And we don't live in an idealized world with no tradeoffs.