[newnewnew]

Men do better than women at the Math SAT[1]. The male/female ratio is especially high in the higher Math percentiles, where you would expect your best engineers to come from. The polite way to explain this is some kind of "expectations effect", which is possible, but females do dominate at all other aspects of education. We cannot rule out simple innate ability, combined with higher male interest in abstract things.

[1] http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/09/2012-sat-test-results-a-hug...

[quinnchr]

Men score better than women on standardized tests in math in some countries, while in other countries women score better (http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~kelly/gap_sept09.pdf).

It's almost as if the culture you are surrounded by somehow affects you. In fact the countries with more gender equality that encourage women in the sciences have higher test scores for women!

[clarkm]

Thanks for that link. After looking through Appendix Table 2 (page 25), it's pretty obvious that the only big outlier is the gap in Israeli high-school students.

Here's a link to the (gated) paper with the data: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0047272708...

From the abstract:

  This paper tests for the existence of gender stereotyping and
  discrimination by public high-school teachers in Israel.
  
  Using data on test results in several subjects in the humanities 
  and sciences, I found, contrary to expectations, that male
  students face discrimination in each subject. These biases
  widen the female–male achievement difference because girls
  outperform boys in all subjects, except English, and at all levels of
  the curriculum. The bias is evident in all segments of the ability and
  performance distribution and is robust to various individual controls.

Ok, that was surprising. Does anyone have any more information about this?

[reinhardt]

Sure, if "gender equality" is a euphemism for school grades being biased towards girls:

“If, as the data suggest, young girls display a more developed ‘attitude toward learning’ and teachers (consciously or subconsciously) reward these attitudes by giving girls higher marks than warranted by their test scores, the seeds of a gender gap in educational attainment may be sown at an early age, because teachers‘ grades strongly influence grade-level placement, high-school graduation and college admission prospects.”

http://www.buzzfeed.com/annanorth/why-girls-get-better-grade...

[newnewnew]

Wow, I never knew that the male-female Math gap was so robust. Look at the tables in the last three pages you linked. Except for Israel, nearly every country has a male-biased Math score gap on standardized tests.

[yetanotherphd]

It's called progressive-splaining [1]:

A condescending, inaccurate explanation delivered with rock solid confidence of rightness and that slimy certainty that of course they are right, because the are the progressive in this conversation

[1] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mansplain

[ama729]

> where you would expect your best engineers to come from.

I frequently see this assertion but I never see it sourced. Most programming use nothing more than simple math or just re-implementation of known algorithms (and we know how it turned out for Telegram to invent their own), why would you need hardcore math skills then?

If you said "above average", that would have been understandable, but then there isn't much data to support that point of view since as point out, the effect is especially important in the higher percentiles.

[ericd]

Math and programming both require a facility in thinking abstractly, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a correlation between math ability and programming ability.

[newnewnew]

Startups try to keep a "high bar", only hiring people with sterling academic credentials or proven work in the field.

So I would expect the gender ratio to be less equal at startups that draw from the far right-hand side of the graph, and more equal at big firms that are willing to hire from the middle.

[eropple]

> Startups try to keep a "high bar", only hiring people with sterling academic credentials or proven work in the field.

Your "high bar" is everyone else's "they're like us."

[0x20]

http://www.lscp.net/persons/ramus/fr/GDP1/papers/spencer99.p...

“Characterizing the test as insensitive to gender differences was enough to totally eliminate women’s underperformance in this experiment. Yet when the same test was characterized as sensitive to gender differences, women significantly underperformed in relation to equally qualified men.”

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15298868.2012.68...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19487665

[newnewnew]

Some social scientists are skeptical of the validity of stereotype threat. John List, in a paper coauthored with Steven Levitt at the University of Chicago, was unable to reproduce it[1]. Some scholars suspect publication bias[2]. Also see another failure to reproduce by the Educational Testing Service[3].

[1] http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/10/john-list-on-virtual-none...

[2] http://isteve.blogspot.com/2010/01/stereotype-threat-scienti...

[3] http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/11/high-stakes-stereotype-th...

[rokhayakebe]

Men do better than women at the Math SAT[1]

I just want to add that this has to do with culture, and, again, what we were exposed to and influenced to have an interest in from childhood.

In high school I can remember the top Science student were all women and they racked more awards than men.

[xrctl]

hahah, you recall that the top science students you knew were women? How convincing!

I have analyzed the records of the World Cubing Association, and there is 1 woman in the top 100 ranked [1].

I have analyzed the ratings of the American Scrabble Association, and there are 6 women in the top 100 ranked [2].

It is well known that there is only 1 woman in the top 100 ranked chess players (FIDE).

I have analyzed the ratings of the European Go Federation, and there are 0 women in the top 100 ranked [3].

But no, I guess I must defer to your remembered impressions.

[1] http://rcm-papers.info/gender-and-speedcubing.html

[2] http://rcm-papers.info/gender-and-scrabble.html

[3] Forthcoming

[esperluette]

And this couldn't be in part because women have less free time across the board, about five hours less?[1]

Hard to get to tournament quality if you don't get as much time to practice.

[1]http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/06/10/another-gend...

[parennoob]

Are you seriously saying that women without children at home having less free time is now somehow society's problem? You don't just "have less free time" automatically. It's probably because you choose to do more housework, which is exactly what the study says ("they spend about six hours more than men doing household work").

Don't want to do it? Cool, practise for a tournament all the time, don't do more housework, and take the risks that come with that. There are tons of lonely male nerds who have untidy houses and excellent tournament records. You are very welcome to join their ranks. In fact they would probably be glad to have more female participation. I on the other hand will err on the side of a more tidy house, and no medals.

[esperluette]

Uh, no.

The OP was trying to imply that women are naturally worse at the competitions cited, and I pointed out that women in the age demographic that wins those competitions (usually men 20-50) have less free time than the men.

And ... many women don't "want" to do more housework/chores, but feel they have to do it, because if their house is dirty or their kids don't have clean clothes/snacks for the soccer game, etc., it's considered the mom's fault. The dad often gets a free pass. The social pressure makes it a LOT less than a "choice". The social pressure = society's problem. Think about that the next time you see an ad where a woman is shamed because X in her house is less than sparkling, or one where a man is given a free pass to be incompetent at a household chore.

The average woman will catch much more flak for having a dirty house than she will be praised for playing competitive X, even if she's very very very good. And if she's less than very very very good? She's "neglectful" or "selfish."

If I said a guy "chooses" to wear pants instead of a skirt, is it fair to leave out the fact that a guy in skirt will probably face some harassment? There are free choices and not-so-free choices.

And ... please, I don't want to hear "But yardwork!" The grass gets mown 1x/week. The garbage cans go out 1x/week. The dishes, laundry, general tidying? For anything more than 2 people it's every day.

I'm lucky because my spouse does 80% of the housework, because I have a demanding startup job (uh, with time to read HN).

[parennoob]

Uh, yes.

The OP was correct in saying that men are better (he didn't say anything about naturally) at the competitions cited.

And...many men don't want to do chess, coding, or Go competitions, but feel they have to do it, because it is often way of getting any recognition from society, which usually reserves it for actors and football players. Women often get a free pass on account of their looks -- people are naturally nice to even an average-looking woman. An average looking man gets squat. This social pressure = society's problem. Think about that the next time you see an ad that portrays the average dad as an incompetent schlub. For instance, this one -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iymBRSUfz9U

The average man will be treated much worse at a supermarket, a coffee shop, or on the bus, even if he is very very very polite. And if he is less than handsome or wealthy? He's "not really my type", or "ugh, what a creep".

If a girl chooses to dress as a man for a year, it is a fact that she will come out of that experience seeing how harder it is for men. (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2006/apr/01/highereducation...)

And please, I don't ever want to hear about how you (or your spouse) can't do well at chess or programming because you are busy putting out the trash and doing the dishes in your house. I face the same problems regarding housework, and I am still expected by traditional society, even in the US, to be the breadwinner for my family (which is one of the many reasons I will probably never marry).

[yummyfajitas]

The delta in "Leisure and sports" activities is not caused by the fact that women have "less free time across the board". It is caused by the fact that women choose to engage in other activities.

Women spend 6.61 hours on work + household work + caring for others + shopping, men spend 6.41 hours on it. The delta is 1.4 hours/week, not 5 hours/week.

Women sleep 1.82 hours/week more than men, spend 1.61 hours/week more than men on grooming, and 0.85 hours/week more than men on religious/civic activities. A woman who wanted to become a scrabble champion could easily choose not to do her nails, to wake up earlier and to skip church.

http://www.bls.gov/tus/tables/a1_2012.pdf

[rokhayakebe]

I'll take my comment back until I can find proof (which I shall find :)).