[tvladeck]

I have the opposite reaction to this posting: Penny Arcade are being abundantly clear and transparent about the requirements and drawbacks of the role.

It's not exploitation; it's a trade, and Penny Arcade have listed out their terms. Everyone is free, or not, to go along with what they want.

The author mixes two messages: (1) the merits of the offer, and (2) the ethics of the offer. The author may be right about (1) -- I am not qualified to say -- but this does not imply that he's also right about (2). A poor job offer is not an unethical one; and in this sense I think Penny Arcade are living up to higher standards by being transparent about where they may fall short.

[GauntletWizard]

You can take precisely the same position about walmart; Their jobs are shitty, but they're an offer, and working it is up to you. Whether this validates walmart or damns PA is up to you.

Personally, I take the former opinion, though I'm saddened that walmart is able to continue to exist despite their bad proposition. Many people see their options as "Work for walmart" or "starve", and in many cases, they're right (Or they might end up with both anyway). Basic income might fix this, though I doubt it.

[sliverstorm]

Right, that's kind of a difference between the WalMart offer and the Penny Arcade offer. Anybody who gets the job at Penny Arcade has many other good options.

[grecy]

> Everyone is free, or not, to go along with what they want.

But in America, with no social safety net, the alternative is not pretty.

Reading about unpaid internships, Wal-mart having food drives for their employees and McDonald's recommending employees get a second job makes me sick to my stomach.

The very fact that people even take these jobs is proof they don't have another choice - what sane person would work these jobs if they had a viable alternative - any alternative.

[jdminhbg]

> But in America, with no social safety net

I'm starting to doubt that this kind of thing is hyperbole and starting to think people actually believe it.

[grecy]

> I'm starting to doubt that this kind of thing is hyperbole and starting to think people actually believe it.

I'll re-word what I said to be clearer.

>>But in America, with no social safety net, the alternative is not pretty.

But in America, the social safety net is so grossly inadequate by developed country standards, the alternative is not pretty. America is the only developed country that has many fully employed working people living below the poverty line and ~10% of the population with no health care. (EDIT: re-worded to be per capita, not outright numbers)

This system is such a disgrace, people are forced to take the aforementioned jobs, proving they have no choice.

Ask people from any other developed country, and they'll be shocked, disgusted and outraged that people in a supposedly developed country must live that way.

[angersock]

Break your leg, don't claim insurance, and have your car break down, and lose your job.

Tell me about that safety net.

[jdminhbg]

I guess I was right, it wasn't hyperbole, you actually believe it. At any rate: http://www.ssa.gov/disability/

I'm sure the reply will be that that isn't enough, so at least then we'll just be back to it being righteous hyperbole.

[lotyrin]

Do you know any homeless or folks on SSDI in the US?

It's tricky getting SSDI when the problem is inobvious like debilitating pain from Trigeminal Neuralgia or Crohns Disease or anything behavioral, cases which - from the outside - look like you're just effort-averse. Even family and friends , it's difficult to watch someone manage their pain with pot and videogames or TV and not conclude they're they're just being deliberately useless and that you should withdraw support "for their own good".

People argue that if you can play games then you can do menial office work, but unskilled office labor pools generally don't tolerate you taking a ton of sick time because you need to spend all day curled in a ball crying, drugged to sleep for pain, or because you're pooping five times an hour. The job market is such that they can just hand your job to someone healthier, and they usually will without considering the labor law of their jurisdiction, you could challenge that but its probably a waste of time. If you can keep them, these jobs probably also don't include health coverage.

This is where the later phases of will ACA become valuable to you, but until then and otherwise (say if its opponents finally manage to kill it), if you have no money or health coverage its pretty fucking hard to get a diagnosis. For pain, if you can't pay much for a doctor you get to spend 90% of every appointment just trying to convince your doctors that you're not a junkie. For anything behavioral, that end of the care market seems to mostly either be a joke where they shrug and throw prescription samples at you or a nightmare where they try to hospitalize you.

Even with a diagnosis you are not likely to be deemed eligible. Then you get to argue your case which requires finding a litigator willing to bet you'll win and some years.

Some assistance you're just automatically not eligible for if you're attending school, with the idea that you'd instead use the financial aid systems specifically in place for that situation, not considering that maybe aren't eligible because your parents make too much, or they refuse to even file taxes so you can prove what they make, or even in the case that you're independent if past health issues affected your grade average too harshly.

Doing all of this yourself (because you have zero social support because friends and family all think you're just lazy or a druggie) with your condition is difficult to say the least.

Meanwhile you're vagrant because there's nothing in place to help you unless and until you win your case(s) for eligibility or wrongful termination, or for getting things stricken from your education record.

And that's if you're even fully educated on what your options for care are. Many people just don't know how to begin seeking free mental care, free clinics or that they could try to find a lawyer that would help them seek SSDI, some are homeless and have no phones internet or mail, some of them are single parents doing everything they can just to continue to have jobs, others have behavioral problems and wrongly perceive that these options will fail so can't generate the will to try them.

Sure, the US has nets, but they're not so big that you don't have to aim for them as you're falling.

I guess there's a logical position that you could hold that the people in those situations don't matter: if they can't even help themselves why should we help them, if it's impossible to distinguish them from lazy people then we shouldn't help them lest we increase opportunity for fraud, but I reserve the completely subjective opinion that such a position is terrible and irresponsible.

[nerfhammer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Disability_Insu...

"a person qualifies for SSDI if: they have a physical or mental condition that prevents them from engaging in any "substantial gainful activity" ("SGA"), and the condition is expected to last at least 12 months or result in death, and they are under the age of 65, and generally, they have accumulated 20 social security credits in the last 10 years prior to the onset of disability"...

"Applicants may hire a lawyer to help them apply or appeal... Most SSDI applicants—about 90 percent according to the SSA—have a disability representative for their appeal"

"The Social Security Administration estimates that the initial benefits application will take 90 to 120 days, but in practice filings can take up to eight months to complete. The appeals process for denied filings can likewise take 90 days to well over a year to get a hearing, depending on caseloads."

"In 2013, the average monthly disability payment was $1,132 and highest on record was $2,533"

Is that something you would want to rely on?

[Zimahl]

If you think Social Security is a safety net, think again. Unless you are completely disabled you aren't going to see a dime from SSI. Anything that is 'short term' you are out of luck. Even cancer is considered 'short term'.

A real safety net for disability would be something like what Aflac provides. I had a friend who slipped a disk in his back and was stuck on a couch for months until he had surgery. Fortunately for him his company paid for disability insurance as a perk. I'm not sure what he would've done otherwise.

[Domenic_S]

> Unless you are completely disabled you aren't going to see a dime from SSI. Anything that is 'short term' you are out of luck. Even cancer is considered 'short term'.

Bullshit.

[jacalata]

Can you explain how you believe the process of applying for disability because of a broken leg would go? And if possible, provide some kind of evidence?

[Domenic_S]

http://www.disabilitysecrets.com/resources/disability/gettin...

[methodover]

He makes an explicit case for both (1) and (2). He doesn't try and merely imply (2).

Also, a transparent trade can still be exploitive. If I were to advertise for a slave, that would be an advertisement for an exploitive "offer."

The real question is if this offer, in particular, is exploitive or not. I think he makes a solid case that it is.

[tankbot]

> He makes an explicit case for both (1) and (2). He doesn't try and merely imply (2).

You read wrong. tvladek did not say Buecheler implied anything, only that being correct about one thing does not imply being correct about another.

And if you advertised for a slave you would presumably be dealing with the owner of said slave, so if you were offering a reasonable price, then no that would not be an exploitative offer.

Khoo's job posting offers value and leaves it up to the applicant to decide if that is inline with their requirements. For some it will be a dream job. For others it will not.

Slaves do not choose to be slaves, that is part of the definition of the term. The introduction of hyperbole and apples to oranges comparisons does not further conversation.

[methodover]

Voluntarily entering into slavery was indeed popular. Individuals would sell themselves into slavery to pay a debt, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery

[tankbot]

Yes, that's true, point to you! I'm not sure I would call it 'popular' though. Maybe 'somewhat common among people with no other possible options outside of death or prison (death).'

[coldtea]

>I have the opposite reaction to this posting: Penny Arcade are being abundantly clear and transparent about the requirements and drawbacks of the role.

Given what the requirements and the drawbacks are, that's just marginally better than not being clear.

To give an extreme example to make this clear, I'm not going to be lauded by putting up an ad like: "I'm a old-style racist, and want a black person to serve as my personal assistant. No salary given. Must do as told".

[eridius]

You say that like the Penny Arcade job listing is somehow rare. It actually sounds like an accurate description of a lot of startup jobs out there. The only thing unique here is that they're actually being upfront about expectations, instead of letting the new hire find out over time about the true expectations of their role.

[ceol]

And every time someone talks about those terrible startup jobs, everyone agrees they're garbage.

[eridius]

Sure, but they don't typically accuse the person who posted the job of being scum, which a lot of people seem to be doing with this Penny Arcade listing.

[mncolinlee]

So to extend your argument-- as long as a worker is fully informed that he may die working in a dangerous factory, it's not unethical to lock the doors and windows?

Are you redefining ethics to suit your argument? Consent does not voids ethics. It's only a single component of ethical behavior.

[tvladeck]

How does that bear any relationship to my argument?

[mncolinlee]

You said "it's not exploitation; it's a trade." I'm saying the two are clearly not mutually exclusive.

[scarecrowbob]

Being up front about your unethical behavior just makes you more culpable, because not only _should_ you know better, you do in fact know better but will proceed anyhow.