[grecy]

> Everyone is free, or not, to go along with what they want.

But in America, with no social safety net, the alternative is not pretty.

Reading about unpaid internships, Wal-mart having food drives for their employees and McDonald's recommending employees get a second job makes me sick to my stomach.

The very fact that people even take these jobs is proof they don't have another choice - what sane person would work these jobs if they had a viable alternative - any alternative.

[jdminhbg]

> But in America, with no social safety net

I'm starting to doubt that this kind of thing is hyperbole and starting to think people actually believe it.

[grecy]

> I'm starting to doubt that this kind of thing is hyperbole and starting to think people actually believe it.

I'll re-word what I said to be clearer.

>>But in America, with no social safety net, the alternative is not pretty.

But in America, the social safety net is so grossly inadequate by developed country standards, the alternative is not pretty. America is the only developed country that has many fully employed working people living below the poverty line and ~10% of the population with no health care. (EDIT: re-worded to be per capita, not outright numbers)

This system is such a disgrace, people are forced to take the aforementioned jobs, proving they have no choice.

Ask people from any other developed country, and they'll be shocked, disgusted and outraged that people in a supposedly developed country must live that way.

[angersock]

Break your leg, don't claim insurance, and have your car break down, and lose your job.

Tell me about that safety net.

[jdminhbg]

I guess I was right, it wasn't hyperbole, you actually believe it. At any rate: http://www.ssa.gov/disability/

I'm sure the reply will be that that isn't enough, so at least then we'll just be back to it being righteous hyperbole.

[lotyrin]

Do you know any homeless or folks on SSDI in the US?

It's tricky getting SSDI when the problem is inobvious like debilitating pain from Trigeminal Neuralgia or Crohns Disease or anything behavioral, cases which - from the outside - look like you're just effort-averse. Even family and friends , it's difficult to watch someone manage their pain with pot and videogames or TV and not conclude they're they're just being deliberately useless and that you should withdraw support "for their own good".

People argue that if you can play games then you can do menial office work, but unskilled office labor pools generally don't tolerate you taking a ton of sick time because you need to spend all day curled in a ball crying, drugged to sleep for pain, or because you're pooping five times an hour. The job market is such that they can just hand your job to someone healthier, and they usually will without considering the labor law of their jurisdiction, you could challenge that but its probably a waste of time. If you can keep them, these jobs probably also don't include health coverage.

This is where the later phases of will ACA become valuable to you, but until then and otherwise (say if its opponents finally manage to kill it), if you have no money or health coverage its pretty fucking hard to get a diagnosis. For pain, if you can't pay much for a doctor you get to spend 90% of every appointment just trying to convince your doctors that you're not a junkie. For anything behavioral, that end of the care market seems to mostly either be a joke where they shrug and throw prescription samples at you or a nightmare where they try to hospitalize you.

Even with a diagnosis you are not likely to be deemed eligible. Then you get to argue your case which requires finding a litigator willing to bet you'll win and some years.

Some assistance you're just automatically not eligible for if you're attending school, with the idea that you'd instead use the financial aid systems specifically in place for that situation, not considering that maybe aren't eligible because your parents make too much, or they refuse to even file taxes so you can prove what they make, or even in the case that you're independent if past health issues affected your grade average too harshly.

Doing all of this yourself (because you have zero social support because friends and family all think you're just lazy or a druggie) with your condition is difficult to say the least.

Meanwhile you're vagrant because there's nothing in place to help you unless and until you win your case(s) for eligibility or wrongful termination, or for getting things stricken from your education record.

And that's if you're even fully educated on what your options for care are. Many people just don't know how to begin seeking free mental care, free clinics or that they could try to find a lawyer that would help them seek SSDI, some are homeless and have no phones internet or mail, some of them are single parents doing everything they can just to continue to have jobs, others have behavioral problems and wrongly perceive that these options will fail so can't generate the will to try them.

Sure, the US has nets, but they're not so big that you don't have to aim for them as you're falling.

I guess there's a logical position that you could hold that the people in those situations don't matter: if they can't even help themselves why should we help them, if it's impossible to distinguish them from lazy people then we shouldn't help them lest we increase opportunity for fraud, but I reserve the completely subjective opinion that such a position is terrible and irresponsible.

[nerfhammer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Disability_Insu...

"a person qualifies for SSDI if: they have a physical or mental condition that prevents them from engaging in any "substantial gainful activity" ("SGA"), and the condition is expected to last at least 12 months or result in death, and they are under the age of 65, and generally, they have accumulated 20 social security credits in the last 10 years prior to the onset of disability"...

"Applicants may hire a lawyer to help them apply or appeal... Most SSDI applicants—about 90 percent according to the SSA—have a disability representative for their appeal"

"The Social Security Administration estimates that the initial benefits application will take 90 to 120 days, but in practice filings can take up to eight months to complete. The appeals process for denied filings can likewise take 90 days to well over a year to get a hearing, depending on caseloads."

"In 2013, the average monthly disability payment was $1,132 and highest on record was $2,533"

Is that something you would want to rely on?

[Zimahl]

If you think Social Security is a safety net, think again. Unless you are completely disabled you aren't going to see a dime from SSI. Anything that is 'short term' you are out of luck. Even cancer is considered 'short term'.

A real safety net for disability would be something like what Aflac provides. I had a friend who slipped a disk in his back and was stuck on a couch for months until he had surgery. Fortunately for him his company paid for disability insurance as a perk. I'm not sure what he would've done otherwise.

[Domenic_S]

> Unless you are completely disabled you aren't going to see a dime from SSI. Anything that is 'short term' you are out of luck. Even cancer is considered 'short term'.

Bullshit.

[lotyrin]

It's written right in that the condition must be expected to last 12 months or more.

Depending on case loads in your jurisdiction, it might take longer than that to apply and appeal your (likely) denial.

Maybe you're thinking of short-term disability insurance, which is a private service unavailable to those who can't afford it?

Edit because we're too deep in this thread: from ssa.gov

"Social Security has a strict definition of disability for children.

The child must have a physical or mental condition(s) that very seriously limits his or her activities; and The condition(s) must have lasted, or be expected to last, at least 1 year or result in death."

Perhaps you were in a state-run program for minors with different eligibility requirements, I'm not sure.

[jacalata]

Can you explain how you believe the process of applying for disability because of a broken leg would go? And if possible, provide some kind of evidence?

[Domenic_S]

http://www.disabilitysecrets.com/resources/disability/gettin...

[jacalata]

Social Security generally requires that your fracture hasn't healed for least six months and a doctor's opinion that it is unlikely to heal for a total of at least 12 months.

So I guess it is technically true, and the advice to someone who breaks their leg is to make sure that it is a horrific fracture that won't heal for a year. Sounds like a comprehensive safety net after all, people with the typical recovery time of only three months are just ineffective and don't want to use the safety net.