[roflc0ptic]

Yeah, exactly. I'm deeply sympathetic towards lefty activists and activism, but I just cannot get over how much privilege "politics" [sic] sounds like original sin.

1. Being racist is bad 2. All white people are racist (by virtue of being born into a racist culture)

Ergo... all white people are bad. And I've seen several facebook posts by people of color that say things like "I'M DONE WITH WHITE PEOPLE." And I'm even somewhat sympathetic to that: All the evidence I've seen indicates I get treated better for being a tolerably handsome white dude. That must be kind of infuriating.

But at the end of the day, it's this culture that is often hostile to white dudes on principal, and just... okay? I guess I won't talk to you at parties if you don't want me to?

[phillmv]

>But at the end of the day, it's this culture that is often hostile to white dudes on principal, and just... okay?

So, the premise that this begins with starts not with the notion that you're a bad person who doesn't deserve to live but more from the notion, popular in lefty circles, that your opinion about the plight of less privileged people doesn't matter precisely because you have no experience in the subject matter.

There is a legitimate criticism that people have swung too far into these kinds of identity politics, and that they're ultimately more divisive than not. Ultimately, they prevent the formation of a communal polity that can work together on shared incentives rather than splintering into a fractal set of identities.

It gets trickier because a lot of white dudes parse this as a personal attack and thus get (appropriately, from their perspective) upset. I'm not personally, consciously responsible! What did I do wrong?

The key thing to keep in mind is, if you're not a white dude, you've spent most of modern history totally shut out of the conversation. It's extremely infuriating! And having white dudes complaining that they're not being listened to - with all the attending historical baggage that claim carries - only compounds that frustration. Which is why people lash out.

We're still in a state of flux; things will settle down one way or another. But I think it's worth keeping in mind the difference between "All white people are racist" and "We're really tired of only listening to the opinions of white people". Usually, people mean the latter and not the former.

[cobrausn]

The key thing to keep in mind is, if you're not a white dude, you've spent most of modern history totally shut out of the conversation.

The key thing you are forgetting when you say 'shut up, straight white boy'[1] is that throughout most of history (and still today), even if you were a white male, you were statistically speaking poor and fairly unimportant, and also shut out of 'the conversation'.

There is a fairly significant difference between accepting additional input from those with a different perspective (inclusive) and excluding input because of perceived privilege based on race/gender/etc (exclusive).

[1] I'm adapting this from the title of a feminist blog post critical of the term 'privilege' as a useful rhetorical device, which curiously cannot be found (404), don't take it literally...

[phillmv]

>even if you were a white male, you were statistically speaking poor and fairly unimportant, and also shut out of 'the conversation'.

Well, it's not about your individual, direct contribution but your place in that system of power.

Just because you're not directly related to powerful rich white men doesn't mean that their decisions - while mostly targetted at "rich" rather than "white and male" - haven't also and continue to benefit you to this day.

My great-great-great-grandfather may have been a penniless shmuck of no importance - but whoever he was he was still the head of his household and had some modicum of rights. His wife on the other hand, would have been largely considered to be his property. Had he died after her first born son came of age, she might not even inherit anything he leaves behind - or be forced to marry his younger brother, or etc etc.

And woe betide you if you were born black 50+ years ago.

I know the above isn't in question but what I'm getting at is - we still benefit in some way from all of this and the fact that our feelings get hurt, or we aren't personally responsible isn't particularly interesting.

I'm not defending the practice - I too lean towards saying "it's way too abrasive" but I fundamentally sympathize with the underpinning. Anything I say is likely to be in my interests.

[roflc0ptic]

>>here is a legitimate criticism that people have swung too far into these kinds of identity politics, and that they're ultimately more divisive than not. Ultimately, they prevent the formation of a communal polity that can work together on shared incentives rather than splintering into a fractal set of identities.

This is a really good articulation of my feelings about it; better than I've managed so far. :)

>>It gets trickier because a lot of white dudes parse this as a personal attack and thus get (appropriately, from their perspective) upset. I'm not personally, consciously responsible! What did I do wrong?

Often it is a personal attack. "SHUT THE FUCK UP CIS WHITE MALE" isn't satire; it's something I've seen written by someone I personally know to someone else I personally know. The hostility is exhausting and alienating. It's bad because people confuse that hostility with making the world a better place; it turns into a group bullying activity, and people form identities around performing their animus towards some individual members of a group.

That animus has been poison in my life and my community, and I'm taking steps to permanently separate myself from activism because of it. I know several other people who have quit for that particular reason. Capitalism is destroying the biosphere and immiserating most of humanity on its way out and this is the best we've got. I just. I can't deal with it.

[nollidge]

Your more astute social justice commentators tend to point out that everybody is racist (and sexist and transphobic and and and). Including people of color against their own race, because they are not immune to the constant messages that they are "the other".

I think it's good to read those frustrated messages with some sympathy. I don't think they're saying they're completely done with ever talking to white people for any reason (like at a party); I think they're just expressing their exhaustion with having to have the same Racism 101 conversations about race with white people. Because white people, as a whole, when hearing about the experiences PoC have, tend to dismiss or question or rationalize rather than listening and considering.

I'm white. I've only recently started paying attention to this shit and already I've seen the repetition of the same tired ideas put forth, especially in HN threads like this one. I can roll my eyes and stop having to think about it for a while (or forever, if I wanted to), but people of color don't really have that luxury.

[roflc0ptic]

"I can roll my eyes and stop having to think about it for a while (or forever, if I wanted to), but people of color don't really have that luxury."

This gets straight back to the guilt thing, though. This idea that it's a luxury that I have, sure. True. What actions does this observation imply, though? None, as far as I can see, except feeling bad. Should I go listen to people of color voice their experiences because they don't feel listened to? I do, you know, and I do listen with some sympathy, but I don't think it's ever done anyone a bit of good.

[makomk]

Well, if you look at the comment you're replying to it's already telling you something concrete you can do beyond merely feeling bad: namely, being sympathetic to people of colour when they say things like "I'm done with white people" out of frustration, and not (for instance) immediately holding this up as proof that PoC are just as racist and so shouldn't complain. You may not like the idea of doing that, but it's definitely a concrete action.

[nollidge]

I think listening does a bit of good. Understanding does even more, and sharing that understanding so they don't have to does even more good. The unfortunate fact is that you'll be listened to better by another white person than a person of color, who'll be perceived as being "biased".