[phillmv]

>But at the end of the day, it's this culture that is often hostile to white dudes on principal, and just... okay?

So, the premise that this begins with starts not with the notion that you're a bad person who doesn't deserve to live but more from the notion, popular in lefty circles, that your opinion about the plight of less privileged people doesn't matter precisely because you have no experience in the subject matter.

There is a legitimate criticism that people have swung too far into these kinds of identity politics, and that they're ultimately more divisive than not. Ultimately, they prevent the formation of a communal polity that can work together on shared incentives rather than splintering into a fractal set of identities.

It gets trickier because a lot of white dudes parse this as a personal attack and thus get (appropriately, from their perspective) upset. I'm not personally, consciously responsible! What did I do wrong?

The key thing to keep in mind is, if you're not a white dude, you've spent most of modern history totally shut out of the conversation. It's extremely infuriating! And having white dudes complaining that they're not being listened to - with all the attending historical baggage that claim carries - only compounds that frustration. Which is why people lash out.

We're still in a state of flux; things will settle down one way or another. But I think it's worth keeping in mind the difference between "All white people are racist" and "We're really tired of only listening to the opinions of white people". Usually, people mean the latter and not the former.

[cobrausn]

The key thing to keep in mind is, if you're not a white dude, you've spent most of modern history totally shut out of the conversation.

The key thing you are forgetting when you say 'shut up, straight white boy'[1] is that throughout most of history (and still today), even if you were a white male, you were statistically speaking poor and fairly unimportant, and also shut out of 'the conversation'.

There is a fairly significant difference between accepting additional input from those with a different perspective (inclusive) and excluding input because of perceived privilege based on race/gender/etc (exclusive).

[1] I'm adapting this from the title of a feminist blog post critical of the term 'privilege' as a useful rhetorical device, which curiously cannot be found (404), don't take it literally...

[phillmv]

>even if you were a white male, you were statistically speaking poor and fairly unimportant, and also shut out of 'the conversation'.

Well, it's not about your individual, direct contribution but your place in that system of power.

Just because you're not directly related to powerful rich white men doesn't mean that their decisions - while mostly targetted at "rich" rather than "white and male" - haven't also and continue to benefit you to this day.

My great-great-great-grandfather may have been a penniless shmuck of no importance - but whoever he was he was still the head of his household and had some modicum of rights. His wife on the other hand, would have been largely considered to be his property. Had he died after her first born son came of age, she might not even inherit anything he leaves behind - or be forced to marry his younger brother, or etc etc.

And woe betide you if you were born black 50+ years ago.

I know the above isn't in question but what I'm getting at is - we still benefit in some way from all of this and the fact that our feelings get hurt, or we aren't personally responsible isn't particularly interesting.

I'm not defending the practice - I too lean towards saying "it's way too abrasive" but I fundamentally sympathize with the underpinning. Anything I say is likely to be in my interests.

[roflc0ptic]

>>here is a legitimate criticism that people have swung too far into these kinds of identity politics, and that they're ultimately more divisive than not. Ultimately, they prevent the formation of a communal polity that can work together on shared incentives rather than splintering into a fractal set of identities.

This is a really good articulation of my feelings about it; better than I've managed so far. :)

>>It gets trickier because a lot of white dudes parse this as a personal attack and thus get (appropriately, from their perspective) upset. I'm not personally, consciously responsible! What did I do wrong?

Often it is a personal attack. "SHUT THE FUCK UP CIS WHITE MALE" isn't satire; it's something I've seen written by someone I personally know to someone else I personally know. The hostility is exhausting and alienating. It's bad because people confuse that hostility with making the world a better place; it turns into a group bullying activity, and people form identities around performing their animus towards some individual members of a group.

That animus has been poison in my life and my community, and I'm taking steps to permanently separate myself from activism because of it. I know several other people who have quit for that particular reason. Capitalism is destroying the biosphere and immiserating most of humanity on its way out and this is the best we've got. I just. I can't deal with it.