[smtddr]

Hey, so... this is a sorta good time to ask. I assume this website's visualization was meant to spark some discussion. Do people on HN support/condemn the BART strike(s)? I've always been under the impression that the huge salaries being reported were some how an exaggeration. Because of this, I support the BART strike(s)... but perhaps my impression is wrong. Also, the strike doesn't impact me nearly as much as some other people. git pull/commit/push works just as good at home as in the office; thus I avoid dealing with the insane traffic from EastBay to San Francisco that is made even more insane by BART shutting down. At the same time, I don't think anyone wants disgruntled BART employees doing anything dangerous so paying them to have a "comfortable" life is also a good idea.

Basically, I want to know if BART employees are being overpaid for what they do. This is probably more of an opinion thing than any kind of fact one way or another.

I don't wanna go into some flamewar or anything....

[samstave]

Here is my perspective as a daily BART rider where 99% of the time I also have a bike, as well as often travelling with small kids/strollers (Forgive my BART Rage): If you have ever taken a BART elevator; every single BART employee should be fired, here is why:

BART elevators, in 100% of my experience over the years has been a cesspool covered in urine and who knows what. EVERY time I take the elevator - I hit the emergency help button and complain about the stench, the state of the service.

Every station operator has had the exact same response: "It's not my job" -- to which I tell them "Then tell someone whose job it is!"

---

I am enraged that I have to pay for such a horrible rider experience, that I have to subject my small children to the horrific conditions of the BART elevators, their filthy cloth seats and their terrible customer service.

I would be happy to have these people make a great salary if they could keep the basics of a clean, safe, efficient service going. As it stands now - I have no sympathy for anything they are doing due to the conditions of the service.

I now exclusively take my bike up the escalator. The station operators try to tell me to take the elevator, and I say I refuse to take it until they clean them.

[zorpner]

> I hit the emergency help button and complain about the stench, the state of the service.

Please stop wasting everyone's time with your abuse of the emergency help button. Your problem is not an emergency.

Additionally, you do not "have to pay" for the experience, you choose to do so.

[discardorama]

> Additionally, you do not "have to pay" for the experience, you choose to do so.

Actually, we _all_ have to pay, even if don't ride BART. There's a 0.5% sales tax addon to fund BART in the Bay Area. Next time, check your facts.

[zorpner]

Of course. That's neither what I nor the GP were talking about (read the next few words after "have to pay" in either of our posts if you're still confused).

[samstave]

The last time I used the piss-laden elevator with my children there was a homeless person convulsing on the platform of embarcaderro station.

You have no clue what you're talking about - Bart is broken and their staff are near useless.

I'm not wasting time and your a pretentious jerk for trying to tell me "I don't have to pay for their service"

[throwaway86]

Actually, you're the pretentious one here, using a device specifically labeled for emergencies to complain at someone every day about the cleanliness of the elevator. They're telling you it's not their job because you're ringing the fucking police, not custodial staff. You are diverting police resources away from, you know, responding to rapes and stabbings because you're a precious snowflake that can't handle a bit of piss on his way to work (undoubtedly in a city that also smells like piss). I'm surprised you haven't been arrested or shot yet, particularly since you are arrogant enough to believe that the rules do not apply to you. Take your bike in the elevator and suck it up. I bet you sneak on with your bike during rush hour, as well.

Those of us that ride BART daily are smart enough to understand that BART has culturally drifted into a transportation service that is inappropriate for children. Particularly during rush hour, BART is an extremely unsafe place for children, and the reason you are disgusted by bringing your children onto BART is because you are taking an unnecessary risk by doing so. You are correct that it shouldn't be this way, but you are a terrible human being for abusing BART employees for the situation in the manner that you do.

We get it. BART is disgusting in some places. You know what? It still beats the hell out of traffic for me every day that I rode it, and I don't walk around making my problems everyone else's problems because I expect perfection out of everything I do. It's a public transportation service, not your personal train. Hop off your horse, get in line with the rest of us and shut up, or go on Craigslist and buy a car, for crying out loud. You're a technologist. You can afford one.

God, I hated people like you when I commuted daily on BART. People like you are too self-absorbed to realize that they make everybody else's commute suck by broadcasting and/or protesting how much the commute sucks. If I had a dollar for every time someone tried to sneak a bike on during rush hour and then had a standoff with the train operator, making the rest of us miss our transfers, I could buy a car.

The only person broken in this situation is you. You wouldn't last a second in New York. I'd think twice about letting these comments stand attached to your name, because they make you look really bad. Like, I hope I never interview you bad.

[samstave]

You're being an ass: If you are in an elevator, there is a button to call the agent. This is THE ONLY BUTTON to all the agent. When you are in a confined room with an infant and a 2 year old and the space is covered in piss and god-knows what else - it is perfectly appropriate to us that button to complain about the hygiene, cleanliness and SAFTEY of that space.

In the event of an overdosing homeless person outside the elevator upon arriving to the platform level, it is again appropriate - and to demand that BART keep these services not only functional - but at a level of accepted cleanliness should not be some ridiculous request.

>It's a public transportation service, not your personal train. Hop off your horse, get in line with the rest of us and shut up, or go on Craigslist and buy a car, for crying out loud. You're a technologist. You can afford one.

[dragonwriter]

> If you are in an elevator, there is a button to call the agent. This is THE ONLY BUTTON to all the agent.

The emergency call button is the only button to call the agent because the only reason to call the agent is to report an emergency.

> it is perfectly appropriate to us that button to complain about the hygiene, cleanliness and SAFTEY of that space.

No, its not. It is appropriate (and more likely to be effective) to complain about non-emergency problems of this type by other mechanisms, but it is neither appropriate nor effective to use the emergency call button to complain about it.

> In the event of an overdosing homeless person outside the elevator upon arriving to the platform level, it is again appropriate

Well, yes, that is an emergency.

> and to demand that BART keep these services not only functional - but at a level of accepted cleanliness should not be some ridiculous request.

The demand is not ridiculous. The use of the emergency call button to make the demand is.

[throwaway86]

> You're being an ass:

Call someone a pretentious jerk but get it back and suddenly that person's an ass. Got it.

> This is THE ONLY BUTTON to all the agent.

That button contacts BART police dispatch in some cases because stations do not always have operators. Particularly in my old home station, I've seen people use it and communicate with someone while the station agent was not in the kiosk. That's the expectation around something labeled "emergency." Give me your pager number so I can page you at 2am to complain about reading your comment.

Do you ever listen to yourself? Seriously, I was being brutally honest. Your comment ranks among the most pretentious and awful I've ever read on HN, and I received a link to it in an e-mail thread where the subject was you. There is no plane of existence where anything you have typed in this thread is normal, rational human behavior.

Do you have any idea what would happen if you pulled this stunt on the New York subway? NYPD would probably paralyze you with a night stick for abusing resources while New Yorkers recorded it with their cell phones. And I've stepped around human shit in the stairwell in New York. And you know what? I don't care! I didn't rage! I didn't vent on HN! I accepted that bad things happen in the world and who gives a flying fuck, and went on my day without sparing two brain cycles except laughing about it later. Who cares? Keep on clenching and frothing at the mouth over every little inconvenience and you're going to die by 50. Relax.

It's public transportation. It's going to be bad. Universally. That's the rule. Wake up into reality, carry hand sanitizer, and focus on things that actually matter. If you're worried about your kids seeing a homeless person because oh no think of their precious beliefs and ideals, drive them where they need to go. Come on. You're better than this.

[discardorama]

> Those of us that ride BART daily ....

and then

> I hated people like you when I commuted daily on BART.

Which is it? Do you take the BART daily or not?

[throwaway86]

When I took my new position, I stopped because it's in the peninsula. It was a recent transition. Before that I rode it daily for years. I'm not sure what you're getting at; in the first instance I'm referencing an aggregate group that I consider myself a part of.

[dragonwriter]

> I am enraged that I have to pay for such a horrible rider experience, that I have to subject my small children to the horrific conditions of the BART elevators, their filthy cloth seats and their terrible customer service.

You don't have to. You choose to. Assuming this enrages you, you should probably stop doing it. There are other transportation options in the Bay Area besides BART, including busses (many of which can transport bikes), rental vehicles (including ad hoc rentals like ZipCar), and owning your own vehicle.

[wavesounds]

I personally think hiring more BART employees and expanding the network (creating construction jobs) would be better then the current BART employees making more money (except for maybe those at the very bottom).

I also think they lost a lot of public support by striking. I think canvasing the platforms to appeal to the public while continuing operations would have been a better tactic.

[smtddr]

Never thought of this, I like. I wonder if they're allowed to do that.

[vinhboy]

I hope someone does the math and figure out whether paying money for OT work is more cost effective than just hiring more people.

I personally think OT should be paid in comp time, not cash.

[sadadar]

I think the graphic is also fairly misleading starting with total comp instead of base salary or cash take home. I know when talking about my salary or how much I make things like value of my medical insurance is rarely something that comes up.

[deeths]

They have the other stats, but in the drop-down, but consider that this is a situation where in some cases salaries+overtime are 2.5x the base salary.

Only a small number of workers are skewed that high, but the overtime is significant for a large percent of workers.

They should have excluded other benefits by default, but I think you need to include the overtime to get a real picture.

[wavesounds]

A lot of people I know have jobs that don't have medical or 401k's so its almost always brought up when discussing salaries around my neck of the woods.

[smtddr]

Yes!!! That's something I really think is going on. I really want to know the base-salary; not the potential health-care, plus 401k, plus something-else, that makes it all look huge.

[jamesaguilar]

Then toggle the drop-down to Salary + OT + Misc.

[smtddr]

thanks for the tip. Looks _much_ more reasonable now; still a bit higher than what I would have guessed. I kinda think this website should default to base-pay. In my mind, when someone tells me their salary I assume they're talking base-pay. If I wanted other info, I'd specifically ask for it. But that's just me.

[discardorama]

> Basically, I want to know if BART employees are being overpaid for what they do.

Correction: this BART strike (threat...) is from the "train operators" union.

Consider the fact that BART trains are (almost) fully automated. The "operator" does nothing more than monitor things. If there is an emergency evacuation, s/he would help the passengers get out of the tunnel or whereever they are.

Now, given this: why should an operator make $100K? Take a look around: how many other jobs pay this much with so little qualifications? A starting teach in SF makes $54K, after a Masters degree and certifications. A BART operator needs a few weeks of classes and that's about it. You can train a person in a few days to run BART trains: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?id=9255291