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by baddox 4679 days ago
And, empirically, property existed long before governments.
2 comments

Well yes, as soon as a creature needs to expend energy to obtain a thing they plan on using later, another creature is going to try to obtain it in a simpler way: by stealing it. And so, even apes and birds have a concept of 'property': things that are theirs, usually cached food, that they will take pains to hide and/or defend.

With humans it isn't quite so clear. The default societal structure for humans is the band, which is basically an extended family unit. In a band, property is shared by the group. If a member of another band sneaks in and takes something, that's theft and will result in retaliation. So a concept of property exists at the band level. But I don't believe that individual members of a band have stuff they are allowed to use but no one else.

It's only in more complex societies that private property at the individual level definitely exists. But these societies also have some form of government, even if it's just a tribal chief.

So if by 'property' you mean private (i.e, individual) property, it's not quite so clear which came first: property or government.

Except that's not true. Monkeys are supposed to give the eggs or other food items that they find to the senior members of their group. But sometimes they'll eat them when nobody is looking, or if they create a diversion (like they'll call like a predator is coming)

so theft can be done in group, especially when there's scarcity

How can you have ownership without protection?
People can and do protect what they believe to be their property. Families and tribes can and do protect the territory they believe to belong to their members.

I like David Friedman's description of property rights not primarily as moral or legal constructs, but as mutually recognized commitment strategies which discourage trespasses. He points out that territorialism in the animal kingdom is similar to property rights (obviously without the existence of a state). Animals mark their territory (e.g. with urine), and other animals tend to respect those boundaries, because there is mutual understanding that the territory holder will fight a trespasser to the death if necessary, and the damage to the trespasser (even a stronger trespasser) will most likely not be worth it. Perhaps the territory holder would be better off just retreating, but what makes it "property" is the near certainty that he won't retreat.

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Order_without_the_sta...

I would call that a state; why is it not a state?
To clarify: you call territorialism in the animal kingdom a state?
Sure, why not? Humans are animals, after all.
I would prefer a more specific definition that would match more closely to people's intuition about what is and isn't a state, and also allows for discussion about what the state should and shouldn't do. If we define "state" as to include animals protecting their territory, I don't see how the term will be very useful in any discussion.
a state has to: 1) tax people who live there 2) threaten people who don't pay with force

otherwise, it has no resources of its own, so it doesn't exist as an entity

How is this not the case in the residential pride of lions where the 5-6 lionesses do the hunting for the 1-2 male lion leaders?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#Group_organization

Whether your property is stolen or not, it ought to be yours. The enforcement of a right is not necessary for a right to exist.
Enforcement is necessary for a natural right to be a legal right.