[baddox]

People can and do protect what they believe to be their property. Families and tribes can and do protect the territory they believe to belong to their members.

I like David Friedman's description of property rights not primarily as moral or legal constructs, but as mutually recognized commitment strategies which discourage trespasses. He points out that territorialism in the animal kingdom is similar to property rights (obviously without the existence of a state). Animals mark their territory (e.g. with urine), and other animals tend to respect those boundaries, because there is mutual understanding that the territory holder will fight a trespasser to the death if necessary, and the damage to the trespasser (even a stronger trespasser) will most likely not be worth it. Perhaps the territory holder would be better off just retreating, but what makes it "property" is the near certainty that he won't retreat.

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Order_without_the_sta...

[foobarbazqux]

I would call that a state; why is it not a state?

[baddox]

To clarify: you call territorialism in the animal kingdom a state?

[foobarbazqux]

Sure, why not? Humans are animals, after all.

[baddox]

I would prefer a more specific definition that would match more closely to people's intuition about what is and isn't a state, and also allows for discussion about what the state should and shouldn't do. If we define "state" as to include animals protecting their territory, I don't see how the term will be very useful in any discussion.

[kaonashi]

I think it's a specific rejection of the notion that there ever existed a time before governments. Governments existed, in some form, the moment particles started interacting.

[foobarbazqux]

I hadn't thought of it in those terms but I like that understanding of governments. A cell is a state, its laws are its DNA, and its borders are its membrane; and not just metaphorically speaking.

[foobarbazqux]

One useful reason to define states as such is because it's a definition that draws on the natural world. If states are only natural, and inevitable, then we don't have to argue about whether they are fundamentally good or bad.

What is your definition of a state?

[iopq]

a state has to: 1) tax people who live there 2) threaten people who don't pay with force

otherwise, it has no resources of its own, so it doesn't exist as an entity

[foobarbazqux]

How is this not the case in the residential pride of lions where the 5-6 lionesses do the hunting for the 1-2 male lion leaders?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#Group_organization