[sillysaurus]

I'm sorry to be a downer, but there needs to be a reality check, because future open source projects can learn a thing or two from this.

This project is unlikely to be successfully funded. In fact, "unlikely" is a mild word for just how unlikely it is to succeed.

Problem #1 - No clear value demonstration to the end user. The video is... not very good. The primary reason it's not very good is because it's asking people to read. People react instinctively to faces, to the sound of a person's voice, and to feeling connected with them. It's no coincidence that virtually every successful Kickstarter campaign contains monologues by their campaign creators. Thus, while there may be a value proposition embedded somewhere in the video, it's probably lost on most people who watch it because they just aren't really identifying with what is being presented.

Problem #2 - a $25 minimum price point. The gamedev industry has repeatedly proven that by enabling people to contribute $5 and $10, you reap about 20-40% more income than you otherwise would have. This truth isn't restricted to the domain of gamedev. The evidence for this is that virtually every successful Kickstarter project has low-tier contribution levels, often contributing a significant amount to the bottom-line of projects that aren't going to deliver a tangible product. E.g. this may not be so important for projects like Soylent, where the end-user will receive something tangible, but it's pretty important for most projects that weren't set up with the goal of taking preorders.

Problem #3 - Too high of a threshold for funding. $50k is not reasonable when the value proposition is so unclear. I could see this project reaching $5k or maybe even $10k. But it's not reasonable to calculate how much it would cost you to work on it, and then use that as the funding goal. "What would the crowds be willing to pay?" takes priority over "How much would this cost me in terms of my time, and what is my time worth?"

[gcasa]

GNUstep isn't a game, it's a platform. Additionally, since we're on the subject of games there have been games which have asked for $50,000 and gotten $2M. I don't think my project will get that much, but I do believe people understand that bringing GNUstep which is mostly up to about 10.4 compatibility to 10.6 is a non-trivial thing.

Problem #1, the video is all I could do. I am not very good at doing videos, it's not my profession. I have little time to hire a cameraman or do professional video editing and I'm not all that photogenic to boot, so it might be a good thing you don't see me on camera.

Problem #2: Easily fixable. I can add other incentives while the project is running.

Problem #3: If the goal isn't reached, then it becomes a matter of it's not even something that's reachable since I must have enough time freed (by having money) to complete what needs to be done. Without the time, the work can't be done at an accelerated rate since I will need to continue to do it in my spare time. So, while the funding goal is high, it is not unreasonable for a project this size.

[tankbot]

You're adding to the problem here instead of taking the constructive criticism to heart and taking action to make things better.

This project is now a business seeking outside funding and should be conducted as such. There are no excuses and perception is everything. Instead of an itemized (note: this projects as petty) response, you need to fix it and say "thank you" to sillysaurus for the valuable input.

You've since added $1 minimum contributions. Awesome! What does that person get? An honorable mention? Their name on the 'Founder's List'? There's nothing in the tier descriptions...

The overall message is still unclear. How does Johnny MacBook benefit from all of your hard work? What is the point?

I want this project to succeed, and that is where the feedback comes from. It's obvious to me and everyone else here that you've put a lot of time and effort into this project. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that it's enough to build it. If they don't know what it is and what it does for them, they won't come.

[gcasa]

Excuse me, but I am not one to simply say "thank you" when some of the suggestions therein don't make sense.

The video IS all I could manage to do. I don't have the equipment or the skills to make a professional looking video.

The second point does make sense, I'm acting on this.

As for the third... he acts like I'm supposed to ask for $10,000 for such a goal. GNUstep is an very large project. Getting it to 10.6 compatibility is going to take time and I can't take the time off of work unless I haver the money I need to make it happen. Asking me to do this for anything less than what I projected is ludicrous beyond belief.

So, yes, I realize where the input comes from and I respect that. I will, however, not simply take those comments and act on them when some of them are unsupportable and untenable.

All of that being said I am planning on adding a video in the next couple of days (most likely tomorrow) of me talking about the project so that people have a face to put to it.

I seriously do thank all of you for your input and I apologize if my responses seem combative. It was my understanding or impression, however, that this was not simply a case of me taking input and mindlessly acting on it, but, instead, a discussion of what's best to help the project succeed and that does include my responses to your feedback.

GC

[jfarmer]

> Excuse me, but I am not one to simply say "thank you" when some of the suggestions therein don't make sense.

You should. There's no downside, but there's plenty of downside to being brusque. You don't need to act on the suggestions.

> As for the third... he acts like I'm supposed to ask for $10,000 for such a goal. GNUstep is an very large project. Getting it to 10.6 compatibility is going to take time and I can't take the time off of work unless I haver the money I need to make it happen. Asking me to do this for anything less than what I projected is ludicrous beyond belief.

He's saying that unless you recontextualize the project, you're asking for too much. Potential donors will have their expectations anchored by (a) their ideas about Kickstarter projects in general, (b) their ideas about similar Kickstarter projects, and (c) their understanding of the value you'll be providing relative to their needs.

If your goal is high relative to similar Kickstarter projects you have to make it appear worth that premium. If it's unclear what value your project will add to your donors' lives that will make your job that much harder.

That's what he's saying.

By the way, if you're asking for donations to pay for the time you're working on it and not the hard costs of the project then it's absolutely critical you have a video with your face on it and not just text. Folks are really donating for your labor, not to for this abstract project.

[gcasa]

You're correct. Much of this does need to be clarified. It wasn't my intent to be brusque, just disagreeing where I saw cause to. Thank you for your feedback.

[levosmetalo]

I know this is HN, but not everyone is trying to "make a business" from his hobby project. Couldn't you consider that the campaign author is just an engineer that wish he could afford to spend more time on something he likes to do and is passionate about? That's why he is able to offer a year of work on undercompensated rate. The same moment when he tries to "do it like a business", the fun is over, the joy is over, and it's just a work. And I doubt any remotely competent software engineer needs to bother with kickstarter to do the boring worky thing.

[nknighthb]

> You've since added $1 minimum contributions.

Those were always there. They are always there. The top-level commenter was complaining about reward tiers. Apparently he thinks developers aren't incentivized enough by the work getting done on the platform they want to use. I think that's pretty bizarre.

> How does Johnny MacBook benefit from all of your hard work?

He doesn't in any way you could successfully communicate to "Johnny MacBook". The drive is squarely aimed at exactly the people who would most directly benefit from the work being done, and be the most likely to contribute: Developers.

[rsynnott]

> This project is now a business seeking outside funding

Huh? No it isn't. It's sponsored improvement of an existing open-source project; it might very well be useful to businesses, but is in no way a business itself.

[rsynnott]

I'd like to contribute to this, but perhaps you could outline how you plan to go about it and if you have buyin from many other GNUStep developers? Apologies if this is in the video; can't watch that at the moment.

To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about the rewards; most people contributing to this will likely do so because it's something they'd either like to see or would find useful themselves.

Also, any plans to address UIKit?

[visualR]

I doubt very much developers interested in GNUStep are like your typical consumer/game player. They read.

[nosefrog]

That's not the point. They're still human and humans still react better to faces than to words. I had the same complaints. I think GNUStep is a great project, but I watched the video expecting to learn what made the developers excited about it and instead I got a powerpoint.

[rwallace]

I don't. I have no interest whatsoever in what your face looks like, whereas I might be interested in your ideas. In this case I actually skipped the video and just read the text summary, expecting it to have better information density. My suggestion for improvement would be a little more discussion of what concrete benefits would be provided by the availability of the proposed software, and evidence that the work can be done for such a small sum of money.

[visualR]

Thats a pretty lame criticism considering the campaign was started by 1 guy who is an engineer, not into marketing.

[bdonlan]

Just because someone's an engineer doesn't magically make people throw money at their project. It's _understandable_, perhaps, that an engineer might overlook the need for good marketing, or not know how to go about marketing something well - after all, for probably the vast majority of software engineers (or other types of engineers!), marketing is just not something they do often. But that doesn't make it 'lame criticism' to point out why such a campaign may do poorly; hopefully the author of the campaign uses this criticism to improve on the campaign so that it might succeed.

[visualR]

>> Just because someone's an engineer doesn't magically make people throw money at their project.

No one said that. It is a lame criticism - focus on whether there is a need for the project, is it possible in the time frame, etc. Substance over style, please.

[Semaphor]

For Kickstarter style has been shown, over and over again, to be very important. He isn't talking about the product or an article.

[gcasa]

I'll add a video tomorrow with me talking about the project. I'm learning a lot doing this kickstarter.

[gcasa]

It's also worth mentioning that the project is already %2 funded approximately 5 hours into the campaign and word has not yet hit slashdot or other websites yet.

[jfarmer]

Most Kickstarter donations come in at the very beginning and very end of a campaign in an "inverted U" shape. If you're expecting the contributions to come in linearly, I'd recalibrate and plan accordingly.

[rsynnott]

> a $25 minimum price point

I think, here, the rewards are more tokens than anything else; this isn't really a product-oriented Kickstarter, except arguably for people who are interested in Darling. Min contribution is actually $1; there's just no reward.

> Too high of a threshold for funding. $50k is not reasonable when the value proposition is so unclear.

I'm not too sure about this. A lot of people, myself included, would like to see GNUStep brought to parity with modern Cocoa. It's never going to be a mass appeal project, but I can see it making its goal.

[chimeracoder]

> Problem #3 - Too high of a threshold for funding.

I looked at this and had the opposite reaction. $50K is between 50 and 75% of a full-time developer's salary in NYC for a single year (I believe it's similar in SF). Are we expected to believe that that's all it would take to get Cocoa libraries running seamlessly on GNU?

Granted, I've never dealt with Cocoa at all, so maybe I'm overestimating this, but it seems like a lot of work.

I mean, how can you take a 15-year, multi-person project, and then assume it's going to be completed with a single person-year[0]?

[0] I don't mean literally a single person - I'm referring to a person-year being a unit of "work" (ie, the theoretical work equivalent of one person for a year).

[_delirium]

I'm also skeptical, but I think the comparison with regular dev salaries overestimates the money that would be needed, at least for some projects. There are many volunteer contributors to open-source projects who would be willing to move to working on them full-time, or at least more-time, for much less than market rate. For example one of the SBCL devs did a lot of work on the compiler for only $16k (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sbcl-threading-2011), and the Git-Annex Assistant guy worked on it for a whole year for $25k (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joeyh/git-annex-assistan...).

Granted, if you have to hire devs not already part of your project at market rate, things will go way up from that.

[rsynnott]

> Are we expected to believe that that's all it would take to get Cocoa libraries running seamlessly on GNU?

That's not what the project plans to do. Apple's implementation of Cocoa isn't open-source. GNUStep already has large parts of the Cocoa APIs implemented, but they're very outdated. I think fixing this on $50k is extremely ambitious, but note that the project says they'll be brought up to at least 10.6 (which would be good enough to allow easy ports of a lot of Mac software), not all the way to 10.9.

[visualR]

I think GNUStep already implements the public Cocoa SDK for 10.4. Though I still think the jump to 10.6 will take longer than a year, if that means supporting Core Data, GCD, bindings, etc.

[chrisdevereux]

Ok then, let's add problem #4 - Too low a threshold for funding.

That is a problem.