[onli]

Those are different things. Just because there is no law forcing the ISPs to collect the data and providing a specific exchange interface following the EU directive, doesn't mean that germany has no other laws giving access to the data the ISPs collect anyway; and other laws permitting ISPs to collect those data. See § 113 TKG as source, which I linked below - it is not a secret.

edit: I'm trying to make that more clear. The difference is that right now, they are not forced by law to collect those data, hence the penalty and lawsuit from the EU. But they may do so - and that is done in practice -, and there is a law that if they do, law enforcement can get access.

[PavlovsCat]

Just because there is no law forcing the ISPs to collect the data and providing a specific exchange interface following the EU directive, doesn't mean that germany has no other laws giving access to the data the ISPs collect anyway

And who claimed it hasn't? I didn't.

You said "the data" is being collected anyway. This, without any further elaboration, seemed to imply "the data that the EU data detention directive would cover", and not "the data ISPs collect to enable their operations".

I think the difference is that if an ISP wants to collect as little as possible, and anonymize/delete any data they don't absolutely need anymore, that'd be legal; If the police wants it 12 months later, they can just say "sorry, we don't have it anymore", provided that's truthful. Under the EU data detention directive that's no more, as not keeping the data for at least X months would be verboten.

[onli]

> And who claimed it hasn't? I didn't.

You did, in a way, with

> No, it was being collected, until the Bundesverfassungsgericht put a stop to that

Have a look at http://www.datenschmutz.de/moin/TK-Verkehrsdaten as to which data are currently saved and for how long, keep in mind that the mentioned numbers are old (but realize that collected Bestandsdaten includes data from people with flatrate, which would never be necessary for billing purposes).

[PavlovsCat]

Have a look at http://www.datenschmutz.de/moin/TK-Verkehrsdaten

"Unter dem Stichwort Vorratsdatenspeicherung werden solche Daten speziell für Repressionszwecke gespeichert. Sie ist derzeit ausgesetzt, die Verkehrsdatenabfrage als solche bleibt aber in Kraft."

The data detention is "currently suspended" according to your own link... sigh.

You did not address the distinction between the police/intelligence agencies having access to the data providers collect and keep, unfortunately but mostly voluntarily -- and the EU data detention directive, which Germany only implemented for a short while and is now in gridlock about, and which would force the providers to keep that stuff around, wether they want to or not.

I mean, if it's all the same, what is the fuss about? You did not answer that. Just because it is still bad, doesn't mean it's all the same, and that accepting and implementing the EU directive would make no difference.

[onli]

Please, read again what I wrote two comments above. I specifically adressed the difference.

[PavlovsCat]

Oops, you're right. Then let's agree to agree on the facts, and sorry for being obtuse. I had the impression you were belittling the fact that Germany is in violation of the EU directive, but that doesn't really follow from what you said, I read that into it.. probably because of "everybody is doing it (what the NSA does)" comments I read occasionally around here, and a general jadedness around the issue. Thanks for your patience ^^

Yes, it it's not great as it is, but it would be worse when the EU directive is actually followed, from what I can tell, and I wanted to stress that.