[emanuer]

I am on page 60 where train operators and station agents are making $122 000.

The difference between "workers" and manager salaries is about 4x, pretty low compared to the private sector.

I find the salaries to be outrageously high, even factoring in that we are talking about the Bay Area & San Francisco. Considering that the average age of BART's cars is 30 years [1], the money seems better spend on updating the equipment.

[1] http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/bart-moved-update-rapidl...

[justizin]

Union mechanics update the equipment, and BART has been offering pay increases, which they also admit are not increases, preferentially to safety improvements.

For instance, the lighting situation in the tunnels is unacceptable and has likely been involved in at least one worker death.

BART workers have important jobs, evidenced by the pain we're experiencing as a region without them. That's what strikes are about.

Would you appreciate your salary negotiation going something like this:

  "Hey, four years ago when the company and our customers were struggling, I accepted a pay freeze to cover essential costs to keep us afloat."

  "Thanks for that.  We'd like you to start covering some of the costs of your benefits, though we're actually doing a good bit better.  We're going to give you a raise that amounts to half of inflation in the most optimistic of light, and that will cover the new costs we're asking you to cover.  We're going to do this so that we can go to the press and say that we offered you a raise, you're a bunch of ungrateful fucks, and look at how you've fucked all of the poor riders.  Also, on top of that, all of the things you've asked us to purchase for the system that would increase worker safety are rejected or deferred - we don't think that should be a part of your negotiation, even if you're saying that you might be willing to accept the pay we're offering if we budged a bit more on these costs.  Do you accept?"

http://www.keepbartrunning.com/an_open_letter_to_the_communi...

[aspensmonster]

I'm an outsider to west coast city politics, but I suspect it's the same all over: the details of why the public workers are striking won't matter. Previous sacrifices and safety concerns be damned. All the public at large will hear thanks to this salary data is that the public worker is doing substantially better than they are in terms of pay and benefits, and likely for less time and effort. Of course, the majority of people --who labour under private entities that regard salaries as costs to be minimized-- could never expect such treatment. And if they can't get it then they sure as hell won't stand for someone else getting it on their taxpayer dime.

It's classic divide and conquer class stratification, and you don't even have to do the agitating yourself.

[incision]

*>"I'm an outsider to west coast city politics, but I suspect it's the same all over: the details of why the public workers are striking won't matter."

Yep.

I can personally confirm that things of this sort play out precisely the same way among east coast equivalents.

[eightyone]

I couldn't agree more. BART is way better at PR than the unions and have littered the media with facts to fit their narrative.

[rossjudson]

Do you understand why people get pissed off when they read the salary tables? The people riding the trains don't have massive employer contributions to their pensions -- or even have pensions. They don't get paid overtime -- they just work unpaid. Stagnant wages? How have wages changed in the area generally, relative to the cost of living?

If you want the upside of big jumps in salary, you should have to take on some of the risks (like losing your job and medical insurance, or your business).

Do you ever wonder if there's someone else who would be willing to do the job you are doing for less?

Would you appreciate your salary negotiation going like this:

"I want 20% increase over four years."

"No. We're laying off 20% of the staff because revenue is down. We might hire you back as a part-timer later, without health insurance or benefits."

[junco]

Sounds like people working in terrible conditions like that could benefit from forming a union. But they'd rather pull everybody down to their level rather than work to bring their own working situation up to something that isn't absolutely fucking abysmal (unpaid overtime (!), no cost-of-living adjustments -- why should any company be allowed to treat their employees that way?)

[rossjudson]

Those "people working in terrible conditions" don't have the ability to threaten everyone around them, like your transit workers do. They'd rather push everybody down, rather than recognize that they have the same options available to everyone who wants an increase in pay. Go find someone willing to pay you more.

[bobo13579]

How would increasing the salaries of $100,000+ union workers improve safety conditions?

[eightyone]

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy82ntr8HYI

[CoffeeDregs]

Word to the wise: don't waste your time on the video. The interviewer ("laborvideo") coaches the interviewees through their interviews. When they lose steam or wander off script, he helpfully coaches them back on topic with dramatic, inflammatory statements/questions.

Oh, by the way, Fox News' coverage of the strike is also poor. News at 11!

[mc32]

At this rate, something's has to give.

If people (riders) realize what the salaries are and compare that to the service they get in return, they should ask for BaRT employees to become more efficient, given their salaries, else BaRT emps will price themselves out and automation will become more and more viable option, despite the political obstacle.

So, yeah, I agree, they should use this money toward upgrades and or service expansion, maybe invest in an additional track smoother[1]. And, as someone said below, they need to realize that they are a service organization and act like one.

[1]http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BAY-AREA-Softening-the...

[samstave]

I've been in more than a few verbal altercations with station agents at almost every downtown SF BART station, where, when going from the platform to the street via the elevator due to having a stroller - am confronted with a disgusting and unbearable stench of urine and other fluids in the elevators.

I hit the emergency call button and demand they clean the elevators. I get a god damned attitude from the station agents as though its not their problem.

Then who the fark's problem is it. The cost of BART and the service on gets - particularly the hygienic risk - is unacceptable.

CLEAN THE DAMN ELEVATORS!

[potatolicious]

They can't. You can hire a full-time person whose sole job is to stand by the elevator and clean it every five minutes and it still won't be clean.

The state of San Francisco's transportation system, whether it's BART or MUNI, is a reflection of the city and its problems, not just of the transit system itself. I sincerely hope you noticed the homeless and mentally-ill that are everywhere in the city before you noticed the elevators they shit in.

Just like human shit clogging up and breaking down escalators (true story, I wish I jest), it is BART's problem, but BART and its employees are more or less powerless against it. When you have a veritable army of homeless and addicts inhabiting your city, there is not much you can do besides stay in that booth.

If you would like functional elevators that aren't biohazard zones, I'd suggest becoming involved locally and solving the problem at its root. I am confident you will get nowhere with clean elevators until you get somewhere with reducing the homeless and mentally-ill population.

[ianb]

> If you would like functional elevators that aren't biohazard zones, I'd suggest becoming involved locally and solving the problem at its root.

"If you want clean elevators, just solve homelessness!" Reminds me of "if you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, first you must first invent the universe." It's cute... but if you actually want to know how to make an apple pie from scratch that answer is just obnoxious.

Your prescription for how to clean an elevator is absurd.

[malandrew]

Why not simply install elevators with a grated floor and install a plastic tarpaulin at the bottom of the shaft. This way and urine would not stay in the elevators. It probably wouldn't do much for poop, which would still have to be removed manually, but I imagine that simply having the elevator open on top and bottom would allow enough air to circulate to eliminate the smell.

Alternatively, is there a way to detect when poop or piss touches a service and trigger an automatic lockdown of the elevator until an officer has come to inspect it and release it? Once someone has been trapped and fined once, they are more likely to avoid doing anything that triggers them getting caught in the elevator.

[jeiting]

Demanding somebody to do anything will probably not get you very far.

[mc32]

The elevators are disgraceful (old, slow, faulty and small) and unhygienic, for sure. They are routinely urinated on and defecated on by mentally unbalanced people who need care (but there are politics with that too). So it's not totally BaRT employees' fault but the situation needs to be managed better and the facilities upgraded for modern transportation (elderly, people with strollers, people with luggage). One measly elevator per station (and two escalators) does not cut it for the volume of people they handle hourly/daily.

[samstave]

We have self-cleaning-steam-cleansed public toilets. We need the same thing in an elevator.

[justizin]

It's difficult to speak about BART staff without using broad strokes. I think station agents are too adversarial and should have a performance measure based on that. I don't know how to do that in any way that is sane. I'm a programmer, and I don't want to ride to work on an automatic train.

I don't much like BART police, and in fact I think the decision to have a private police force for BART should be revisited. These officers are often rejected based on psychological exams from departments like SFPD, OPD, and UCPD. They have higher entry salaries than workers who aren't armed, and while people on Facebook groups seem constantly to want them around with greater presence to admonish cyclists breaking silly rules or chasing naked acrobats, in fact the only thing they seem capable of doing is accidentally murdering people.

You want upgrades? The maintenance team at BART wants safer working conditions to install the equipment you propose to purchase. With no raise during a period with 18% average cost of living increase - a low average all of us on HN know - I'm sure many of these hard working folks are concerned about having to move their families to neighborhoods with worse schools and crime while being asked to work longer hours, and called greedy for clocking overtime.

Just to be clear I have no affiliation except that I have had some drinking buddies who are SEIU organizers. They're serious people who are very good at taking care of the lower wage employees around the world, and esp in places like the bay area with huge income disparity.

http://www.keepbartrunning.com/an_open_letter_to_the_communi...

[mc32]

There are lots of systems with at least some lines with full automation.[1] I've been on some. They transport lots of people. I never had a problem on the ones I was on.

I think if rapid transit is to take off and replace car culture (as a viable alternative), it needs to be affordable and has to go where people want to go. That means make BaRT more affordable and make it go more places --Van Ness, Geary corridors, go down to San Jose via El Camino develop el Camino down the peninsula for dense housing.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_trains

[malandrew]

Just out of curiosity, why would you not want to ride a fully automated train?