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by spitx 4744 days ago
kryten:

Sounds like London, UK where I currently reside with three children...

Does your experience of life in London in recent years (since around late nineties) reflect that of this writer? I think this is one of the few writers (on the topic) I've found balanced and non-alarmist. That's the reason I've used her piece to moot a point that has been posited by many others in a more judgmental and accusative tone. So I ask, is this what London increasingly feels like for secular, middle-income families and individuals?

  "Of the 8.17 million people in London, one million are Muslim,
  with the majority of them young families. That is
  not, in reality, a great number. But because so many Muslims
  increasingly insist on emphasising their separateness, 
  it feels as if they have taken over; my female neighbours 
  flap past in full niqab, some so heavily veiled that I can’t
  see their eyes. I’ve made an effort to communicate by smiling
  deliberately at the ones I thought I was seeing out and about
  regularly, but this didn’t lead to conversation because they
  never look me in the face.

  I recently went to the plainly named “Curtain Shop” and asked
  if they would put some up for me. Inside were a lot of 
  elderly Muslim men. I was told that they don’t do that kind 
  of work, and was back on the pavement within a few moments.
  I felt sure I had suffered discrimination and was bewildered
  as I had been there previously when the Muslim owners had 
  been very friendly. Things have changed. I am living in a 
  place where I am a stranger.

  I was brought up in a village in Staffordshire, and although
  I have been in London for a quarter of a century I have kept
  the habit of chatting to shopkeepers and neighbours, despite
  it not being the done thing in metropolitan life. Nowadays,
  though, most of the tills in my local shops are manned by 
  young Muslim men who mutter into their mobiles as they are
  serving. They have no interest in talking to me and rarely 
  meet my gaze. I find this situation dismal. I miss banter, 
  the hail fellow, well met chat about the weather, or what 
  was on TV last night."

  "In the Nineties, when I arrived, this part of Acton was a
  traditional working-class area. Now there is no trace of 
  any kind of community – that word so cherished by the Left.
  Instead it has been transformed into a giant transit camp 
  and is home to no one. The scale of immigration over recent
  years has created communities throughout London that never 
  need to – or want to – interact with outsiders.

  It wasn’t always the case: since the 1890s thousands of 
  Jewish, Irish, Afro-Caribbean, Asian and Chinese workers, 
  among others, have arrived in the capital, often displacing
  the indigenous population. Yes, there was hateful overt 
  racism and discrimination, I’m not denying that. But, 
  over time, I believe we settled down into a happy mix of
  incorporation and shared aspiration, with disparate 
  peoples walking the same pavements but returning to 
  very different homes – something the Americans call
  “sundown segregation”.

  But now, despite the wishful thinking of multiculturalists,
  wilful segregation by immigrants is increasingly echoed by
  the white population – the rate of white flight from our 
  cities is soaring. According to the Office for National 
  Statistics, 600,000 white Britons have left London in the
  past 10 years. The latest census data shows the breakdown
  in telling detail: some London boroughs have lost a quarter
  of their population of white, British people. The number in
  Redbridge, north London, for example, has fallen by 40,844
  (to 96,253) in this period, while the total population has
  risen by more than 40,335 to 278,970. It isn’t only London
  boroughs. The market town of Wokingham in Berkshire has 
  lost nearly 5 per cent of its white British population.
  I suspect that many white people in London and the Home 
  Counties now move house on the basis of ethnicity, 
  especially if they have children. Estate agents don’t 
  advertise this self-segregation, of course. Instead there
  are polite codes for that kind of thing, such as the mention
  of “a good school”, which I believe is code for “mainly 
  white English”. Not surprising when you learn that nearly
  one million pupils do not have English as a first language. 

  I, too, have decided to leave my area, following in the
  footsteps of so many of my neighbours. I don’t really want 
  to go. I worked long and hard to get to London, to find a 
  good job and buy a home and I’d like to stay here. But I’m
  a stranger on these streets and all the “good” areas, with 
  safe streets, nice housing and pleasant cafés, are beyond 
  my reach. I see London turning into a place almost 
  exclusively for poor immigrants and the very rich.
  It’s sad that I am moving not for a positive reason, but to
  escape something. I wonder whether I’ll tell the truth, if 
  I’m asked. I can’t pretend that I’m worried about local 
  schools, so perhaps I’ll say it’s for the chance of a 
  conversation over the garden fence. But really I no longer 
  need an excuse: mass immigration is making reluctant 
  racists of us all."
Source:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9831912/I...

Edit: Cleanup

2 comments

That's just typical Telegraph[1] hateful anti-immigration stuff. perhaps somewhere buried in there are a few grains of truthy material; did multi-culturalism cause ghettos? etc.

> Nowadays, though, most of the tills in my local shops are manned by young Muslim men who mutter into their mobiles as they are serving.

How does the author know they are muslim?

> I see London turning into a place almost exclusively for poor immigrants and the very rich.

I know many white British non-rich people living in London, but the author is right that London is very expensive. There is a problem with London being the place where everything happens. Some organisations are doing stuff to prevent this (government departments going to the regions; companies moving to much cheaper towns with decent[1] transport; BBC moving to the North; etc.) Perhaps the Telegraph could move their offices to Manchester?

A recent comment I made had the throwaway line about the UK being a lousy place to live. So normally I agree when people say the UK, especially London, sucks.

> It wasn’t always the case: since the 1890s thousands of Jewish, Irish, Afro-Caribbean, Asian and Chinese workers, among others, have arrived in the capital, often displacing the indigenous population. Yes, there was hateful overt racism and discrimination, I’m not denying that. But, over time, I believe we settled down into a happy mix of incorporation and shared aspiration, with disparate peoples walking the same pavements but returning to very different homes – something the Americans call “sundown segregation”.

Blacks first arrived in England with the Romans. But, if we restrict ourselves to the bigger immigrations of the Windrush era (1950s) - we still had both hateful racist violence and institutional racism over 40 years later (See Stephen Lawrence murder, 1993).

If I could be arsed I'd trawl through the Telegraph archives to find the hateful screeds they've printed in the past. Faced with that level of hate it's not surprising that people prefer to avoid Telegraph writers.

Yeah, I'd agree with you that The Telegraph isn't the most balanced of sources when it comes to immigration. It's an overtly right-wing paper.
Why is the slant of the source relevant?

This is the opinion of one person.

I tabled it to invite dissenting voices to offer sensible and rational critiques of the premise not petty and bitter ideologues who want to silence all dissonant viewpoints even when they may have more than a shred of truth value.

There are plenty of such people on sites like Gawker.

I thought this place was a platform for sensible and intellectually upright discussion.

Well, that one person is a polite racist and is using tactics from concern trolling to push their racist agenda; that person isn't wanting to engage in an intellectually rigorous discussion.

We ignore the trolls here.[1]

[1] I WISH. HN is vulnerable to trolling and there are many threads to prove this. :-(

I'm struggling to find what this has to do with San Francisco? Are you saying SF has been taken over by hipsters and is no longer recognizable as it once were?
You needn't struggle so much to find parallels, if you were to even glance cursorily.

While the general validity and the degree to which this writer's experience is shared by others can certainly be debated (which is the reason I tabled it in the first place), the fact that there are strong parallels cannot be contested.

The agents and parties affected in the two settings, London and S.F., could indeed be different. Nonetheless, the theme remains the same.