[ChrisNorstrom]

After watching police chases on TV my whole life, I really want to know:

What's the logical strategy in a police chase? Just keep driving after each other? It risks the lives of hundreds living and walking in the path of the chase all for the sake of punishing 1 or 2 individuals. It just doesn't seem to add up to me.

What a shame we lost someone so brilliant for nothing.

[zb]

In New Zealand the police adopted a (highly-publicised) policy of not continuing to chase people who drive away at high speed due to the danger it poses to the public, when it is trivial to just go round to their house the next day and arrest them. The consequences of this have been as follows:

1) Now everybody runs when stopped by Police. OK, not everybody, but the rate has probably tripled.

2) After the police give up the chase, a member of the public is almost invariably killed at an intersection within 30s, since the offender is still driving at high speed but there are no longer any lights and sirens to warn the public.

3) Everyone - Police, media, politicians, the public - is genuinely confused as to why this keeps happening.

Basically, you can't win :(

[derda]

I don't know what the official stance here in germany is, but I talked to a member of the Autobahnpolizei (Highway Patrol) and he told me that while they have high powered cars that could follow most cars at high speed they will "give up" when hey feel they pose a danger to other drivers and concentrate on blocking exits etc. . But I have to say I have not seen a police chase in germany my whole life.

[waterlesscloud]

I live in Los Angeles, and it happens here all. the. fucking. time. It's a cultural thing, somehow. It a) makes no sense that the criminals are running. They never get away. Were are they going? Bakersfield? And b) A chopper or drone is sufficent 9 times out of 10. Proof- they're televised. From choppers.

[hysterix]

Why do people make comments like these when deep down they know it's not true?

>They never get away.

This is false. I've personally watched los angeles based car chases where the person gets away even though there was a helicopter and units on the ground right behind him.

He was able to get underneath a lot of trees in a neighborhood, jump multiple fences in a row, and completely evaded the helicopter and police units on the ground.

Why do people like you make false statements like, "they never get away" when clearly people do? Do you live in some sort movie fantasy world where the "good guys always win"?

Anyways, running makes sense if you already have multiple felonys and/or know your crime is large enough to meet federal prosecution.

[anonymousab]

Plus, a prevailing ideology is never going to (or back to) jail at all costs, alongside an opinion it belief that any contact with police - no matter how minor or even lawful - carries that huge risk.

So that minor chance of getting away or out of that scenario is mighty appealing, and running could certainly be a reflex for many.

[LeeHunter]

The New Yorker had a great article about this some years ago. Unfortunately its behind a paywall, but one thing that I remember is that guys would deliberately provoke a police chase and then call their buddies who were watching the helicopter footage live on cable news. Sometimes young men will do damn near anything to be "heroes".

[kriro]

For whatever reason German policing seems to be better in general. Pretty much no high speed chases, no "hail of bullets showdowns" and so forth. Iirc the number of bullets fired by the entire German (Germany=population of 80 million) police in a year was roughly the same as two incidents in LA (and most of those were either warning shots or animal kills).

I think it's a cultural issue and criminals in the US are generally more extreme.

I think the official policy in car chases is follow them enough so they'll give up but public safety is always #1. If in doubt abort.

[Kequc]

I grew up in North America and now live in Germany, I can tell you what I think it is.

In Germany everyone is required by law to register their address within two weeks of moving. Not registering where you live and accompanying information, etc is illegal. If you move and someone else is now registered where you lived, you are no longer registered. You cannot really do very many things without that piece of paper including getting a SIM card or even renting a car without some difficulty.

So the police identify you and if you do something wrong they can just find you later, it's best if you catch the attention of the police you stop and deal with it. There is a much more relaxed attitude about law enforcement here, it's far more analytical and people generally avoid social disruption for the sake of. Rather than to avoid punishment. So it's social but it's the method of enforcement as well.

This means that the police presence has been cut down substantially, sometimes I can go a month without seeing a police officer.

[Argorak]

Thats half-true. Meldeverstöße are not uncommon and rarely acted upon. I was registered at my old flat for quite some time. At some point in time, you will get a nice notice that you have to change your registration. During that time, everything works quite well.

Also, registering stuff like SIM cards on an address you are not registered at is also perfectly fine as that information is stricly for the state. The only interesting value for such companies to get hold from me is the Personalausweisnummer (id card number).

This might differ for outsiders as companies want a valid statement that you have an address here.

However, the german police is very good at finding people (and things), as there is a record on where most of your relatives live... Due to all that being rather complete, it works very well. I had a case where the police called my home number because my brothers car window was wide open on a parking lot in front of his house, 600km away. The police is forced to tow the car in that case, if they cannot reach someone. Also, cars are often tracked by paint. If someone flees in a car involved in a crash, the car can often be found, as paint is very unique to cars and locations (statistically). The databases for this are big and germans are generally okay with them.

There is sometimes a way to put screws on other people where possible. Example speeding: if someone speeds in a car, the registered owner will be asked first, even if the person on the picture is someone else. If the owner is unwilling to identify the person, restrictions might be put on him, e.g. writing a trip journal where he enters each and every trip and driver. Everyone wants to avoid that.

Also, germans prefer to game the system, not to wage war on it ;). Speeding is still rampant and there is a huge number of lawyers specialized on traffic laws that know all tricks to get you out of a ticket. Suing for a 40 Euro ticket is nothing unheard of.

[superuser2]

Why would your car be towed for having open windows?

[Fargren]

What do you do about the homeless and the people who live in precarious houses that don't really have an address? Or do they not exist in Germany, via public housing or something like that?

[Mithaldu]

Homeless in Germany are much more rare than in the USA due to the simple fact that we have a government-guaranteed unemployment payment program called Hartz 4.

If you're unemployed for a very long time, you are entitled to these things (if you're unemployed in the short term, you're actually entitled to more than the listed):

* the state will pay your rent, water, heating, trash retrieval, etc. (maximum level of that depends on where in Germany you live)

* the state will pay your insurances for rent, illnesses, accidents and extended medical care

* the state will pay you 374€ per month, which you can use for power, internet, food, etc.

A small note: The mentioned insurances are mandatory in Germany and will be removed along with the tax from your job earnings (as an employee) before the cash is even put into your bank account.

So, to become homeless you need to either choose it willingly, or be in such a mental state that you somehow manage to slip through the social security net, but aren't functioning badly enough that the state hasn't picked you up yet.

[Argorak]

You don't have to be registered where you actually live all the time. Most homeless register at one of the homeless shelters, where there is usually someone who handles letters. Homeless do exist, sadly.

Thats the only thing you need is place where official communication with you can happen. In practice, that means that there is some way to deliver letters for you.

Houses without address are pretty hard to find in germany. Building enforcement is very strict and every piece of land is owned and usually has an address before a house is built.

[Farox]

90 bullets a year in total, as much as they pumped into one guy in New York in the same year

[jagermo]

I can confirm that. At least 15 years ago in Bavaria, the official statement was: "If innocents are in danger, abort the chase. Get his licence plates, broadcast his description, and we get him". Source: Was a cop back then.

[Keyframe]

I see it all the time on Cobra 11, an autobahnpolizei documentary series.

[LinaLauneBaer]

@Keyframe: Are you sure Cobra 11 is a documentary series? I am from Germany as well and what can be seen in Cobra 11 is nothing that happens on German Autobahns.

[Keyframe]

It was my poor attempt to make a joke about it - it's actually quite bad tv show imo.

[JanezStupar]

Cobra 11 is actually quite awesome detective series. Considering the budget I believe that everybody contributing does an awesome work. I actually really like the show.

As a disclaimer I like bad shows that they do not take themselves too seriously more than I like your average series.

I would take Cobra 11 over any american police series any day.

[Volpe]

> After the police give up the chase, a member of the public is almost invariably killed at an intersection within 30s, since the offender is still driving at high speed but there are no longer any lights and sirens to warn the public.

i call BS, citation?

[lostlogin]

My perception was that the comment was correct however with a quick skim I cant produce anything more than anecdata. The police do seem to be consistently breaking their rules which dictate that the chase ends when it gets dangerous. However crashes do seem to be happen after the chase has ended rather too regularly - about 30 seconds later. Citation. Here is an editorial on the poor stats we have. An interesting aside - police chases followed by a crash kill far more people here than police guns. http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objec...

[Lerc]

>However crashes do seem to be happen after the chase has ended rather too regularly - about 30 seconds later.

I had always assumed this was because it was standard practice to report that they had stopped chasing whenever the crashes occur. That's the rules so that's what you report.

[femto]

Is the time of the termination of a chase based on a record made by the pursuing officer? Is it also the case that it looks bad for the pursuing officer if a pursuit ends in an accident?

[CoryG89]

Obviously it doesn't look too good. I am thinking the same though. These crashes that happen 30 seconds after a chase has been halted are probably actually happening 30 seconds before the chase is actually halted; with the officer calling it in that they had quit just before the crash happened.

[Volpe]

That states the occupants of the car die. Not some random (innocent) member of the public (as the GP stated).

[lostlogin]

The non-driver occupants often aren't the person at fault. The driver is.

[baby]

It's forbidden to chase in Tokyo as well.

[auctiontheory]

In Tokyo wouldn't they just be stuck in a traffic jam?

[tnohtyp]

According to the article they killed a police officer and ran, if you don't pursue them how are you going to catch them? Aftersll, they did murder someone, and apparently they had warrants, so it seems reasonable to assume we dont want them out running around anymore as they sre likely to commit more fiolent crimes. Furthermore, if have a policy to not pursue, then every criminal is always going to run.

The fault is on the criminals, not on the police trying to apprehend them or the pursuit.

[joe_the_user]

Read more closely.

"When officers went to investigate, there was a physical altercation between police and 26-year-old Gerardo Diego Ayala that ended with a fatal officer-involved shooting."

The cops killed one of the suspects then pursued the rest, then a pedestrian died in the chase. But the fricken media did a great job phrasing things so the cops seemed justified, woo-hoo.

See:

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2013/05/santa_ana_pede...

(taken from further on this page, belongs further up btw)

[lostlogin]

I'm more commenting on the number of fatalities. Given how it panned out, it was handled badly. Confrontation there and then was the wrong choice. I don't pretend to have any great solutions, but I'd like to think that any armed confrontation that occurred near me had been done with consideration for what-if scenarios. Confrontation often brings out the worst in people, and it did here.

[lostlogin]

Wow. So every stage went as bad as it could have. Sure, there is a series to events where more people could have died, and I'm sure this will be brought up. There should be some people doing some pretty hard thinking about how they handled this.

[grannyg00se]

Why do you say as bad as it could have? This is a physical altercation with known gang members (if I'm properly informed). It's not going to go well.

I think the difficulty in handling a situation like that in any way other than immediate armed confrontation must be immense. If somebody tasked me with "handling" a gang member I'm pretty sure I'd want a gun, and I'd want absolutely no restrictions or post-event questioning on its use. Obviously I'm not involved in professional law enforcement in LA but even with training I can imagine it to be an incredibly difficult situation.

I think that the hard thinking to be done should be directed primarily at the underlying issues that result in (and support) organized street crime.

[gtufano]

You know, police in EU normally don't chase criminals at high speed and they normally found them easily after the fact (especially if they wound/killed a cop). High speed chases are extremely rare, there is no rational need for them (and the consequent danger for passers by).

[nawitus]

EU is not a country. The police in Finland will almost always chase 'criminals' until they stop. The 'criminals' are mostly people who are drunk drivers or speeding, tough.

Ironically, the reason there's very few chases is that punishments are not severe for crimes. If you are certain that you'll get federal prison in USA for almost any crime, it makes sense to risk it and try to get away.

[JackFr]

Given that all of the suspects had outstanding arrest warrants, this episode was the result the suspects 'being found easily after the fact.'

It seems you can find them all you want, but eventually you're going to have to take them in and many times the bad guys just won't want to go.

[rmc]

There isn't a EU wide police or justice system. It's all done at the national level. Policing standards can vary widely around countries.

[mietek]

Your statement is true. The parent poster's statement is also true.

[nawitus]

Not really, the typical action in many EU countries is to go for pursuit. This is case in Finland and Sweden, for example.

[corin_]

I don't know enough about all the countries to say either way, but if FI/SE were the only two countries with this policy (not saying they are - I've no idea) then it would still be accurate to say that the opposite is true in the vast majority of the EU.

[potench]

The way I read it, gang member Gerardo Diego Ayala was killed by a police officer. Then Victor Sanchez and 2 unidentified subjects fled the scene in a car. It's unclear what "officer involved shooting" means, but that's how I took it...

[chc]

That is what "officer involved shooting" normally means — a cop shot them.

[ExpiredLink]

In the US this means the fleeing are accused of murder, right?

[Tloewald]

Quite possibly felony homicide (ironically). And not just the US, any common law country (e.g. most commonwealth countries).

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Felony-Murder+...

[kevincrane]

Is it feasible to just track them from above with a helicopter? That would reduce the number of speeding cars on the road at least.

[waterlesscloud]

Once police have drones high-speed chases become much harder to justify.

[Zolomon]

I seriously doubt drones will cause less innocent deaths.

[nknighthb]

You seem to have confused "armed drone" with "drone".

[tylerlh]

How so? I think they're just implying that even once police drones are in use it won't necessarily deter suspects from driving erratically.

[Houshalter]

It is, but it takes time for the helicopter to get off the ground and show up, and if you don't chase them in the meantime they will likely get away.

I am curious what the average response time is for a police helicopter though.

[glurgh]

The logic of it is that the pursuant might shortly commit further crime and not-pursuing endangers others more than pursuing. Additionally, it might serve as a deterrent to crime if criminals know they will be pursued strenuously.

It's not a universally accepted line of reasoning, even in communities across the US. But it's also not one just made up of whole cloth, 'for nothing'.

[jthol]

I believe a lot of departments have moved to giving up those chases for just that reason. I'm sure there are situations where they will/will not pursue though I'm not sure what the criteria are.

[whenEnough]

the rules all change when one of their own is killed. though it's largely emotional the resulting logic is strong. protection is generated from the fear of an emotional, armed response; so it survives as unwritten police policy everywhere.

just as if for example, we felt the same way the police would be quite scared right now.

[Joeboy]

> the rules all change when one of their own is killed

No police officer was killed. As far as I can tell the chase happened when three men fled police who had killed a fellow gang member.

[whenEnough]

"a physical altercation between police and 26-year-old Gerardo Diego Ayala that ended with a fatal officer-involved shooting."

whoops i read the wrong side of the gun. perhaps assange is right and their language is their undoing.

still, the though of an "emotional" response remains stirring.

[corresation]

That the risk of capture is the greatest deterrent to crime, to start? That the culprits being chased are often highly violent criminals who they don't want disappearing into the social noise? In an urban environment the number of branching permutations is enormous, so they can't simply radio ahead at the outset, and "chasing" is often simply keeping an eye on the target while supporting units move in.

There are several comments throughout this story about how police in [various enlightened areas] no longer do chases. It usually isn't so straightforward, otherwise the world's bank robbers and kidnappers will be on their way over, idling car at the standby.

What most police forces throughout the world have stopped doing is chases for trivial things (where the single most serious crime committed is not stopping for police), which has historically led to everyday people panicking when the police turn on the lights after they roll through a stop sign, etc. Police also try to resort to helicopters sooner, and abandon the chase if it's 2pm in a school zone, etc. However the nature of law enforcement means that chases still happen for serious incidents, and they happen around the world, some questionable accuracy claims in comments notwithstanding.

This is a terrible tragedy and it's unfortunate that this armchair speculation has taken the lead so quickly.

[Tloewald]

This seems correct to me. The most common example I remember was multiple incidents of fatalities resulting in police chasing joyriders.

[wtil]

I too have wondered this after watching American police car chases. Here in the UK at any time a superior officer, often monitoring the scene, can call off the chase, and call in a helicopter (if one is available) to monitor the situation.

All officers must report how safe the chase is (cars on the road, weather conditions, pedestrians) and lying is a criminal offence. Also, officers who are part of a chase must be pursuit trained.

Here's the de facto manual all pursuit trained officers must be accustomed too:

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2011/20110418%...

Example of a pursuit in the UK and notice the shock tactics at the end (smashing the passenger side window, dragging him from the car, etc) this is the to confuse and disorientate the man and makes sure he doesn't have time to get a weapon or destroy evidence.

[mncolinlee]

Most police chases end when the car being pursued stops.

This could be the result of a driver coming to one's senses, an erratic move resulting in a single car accident, or it could be the result of a police blockade with spikes or a PIT maneuver. The last is an example of one technique police departments employ to end police chases more safely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver

[pdubbs]

I listened to a podcast a couple weeks ago that explained a lot of the procedures and laws surrounding police chases. It's worth a listen if you're interested: http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/police-chases-wor...

[ry0ohki]

Most jurisdictions no longer allow chases for crimes less than murder because of this.

[olalonde]

In China, police are not allowed to chase cars.