[lomegor]

1. Because of institutional sexism. Things that exist that discourage or push women off the path to working in technology.

2. It's not that only men can ride it, it's that it's already full men, which is the current situation. Most people trying to get jobs in the technology area are men.

3. The elevator would be policies that help women in the technology areas. Be it affirmative action, or programs designed to help women in the area.

4. Because if you allow everyone in the elevator it would be full of men once again, and a line would form, with the same situation that it's happening in the escalator. If you could manage to make a line where people all queue correctly, and cancel both escalators, you would lose the current situation where people more skilled get to the second floor first.

I thought it was pretty clear. Did I manage to explain it better?

[orclev]

It's still arguing for special privilege. "and a line would form"... so? "It's not that only men can ride it, it's that it's already full men, which is the current situation. Most people trying to get jobs in the technology area are men." I'm not seeing anything here that changes that situation, merely provides a "free pass" to the few women who are interested in technology. This is just affirmative action applied to sexism.

Point 1, is the only legitimate issue I see here, but I'm not seeing any suggestions on how to fix it, and no, handing someone a free pass just because they happen to be the right sex or race isn't the answer, it's just as bad as the problem it's supposed to be addressing.

[wpietri]

I share your suspicion of affirmative action as a solution. But I definitely don't think it's as bad as the problem.

As a straight white male, I've already received a number of unearned bonuses. If I fail to receive another dose of privilege, that is definitely not as bad as somebody who's been unfairly penalized receiving another penalty.

Even in the case where I'm improperly penalized so as to give a bonus to somebody who has less privilege, I don't think that's as bad as the reverse. I've still got my lifetime history of privilege; although it feels locally unfair to me, I don't think it's globally unfair.

[theorique]

As a straight white male, I've already received a number of unearned bonuses.

What kind of bonuses are those?

(Also, as a straight white male, how do I sign up and get my black Amex?)

[wpietri]

Off the top of my head:

I was encouraged from an early age in math and science. I was given computer-ish toys (Big Trak represent!) and, later, computers. When I went with my dad to work and played around with their computing gear, nobody said that wasn't something boys should do. In my computer classes, everybody looked just like me. Nobody ever told me that I was good at these things "for a boy". Nobody suggested I should be spending my time on dolls, or make-up, or being appealing to boys. Nobody told me I should pick a college based on how many well-off men there were there. Nobody ever asked me to make them coffee because they thought I was the receptionist. Nobody ever told me I was too pretty to be a programmer. People listen to me more easily than my female colleagues.

And a zillion more, just for being a guy. Being white is a whole other set of things. As is being straight in a heteronormative society.

If you're really interested, these are some good starting points on examining and acknowledging one's privilege:

http://danilocampos.com/2013/02/unpacking-my-knapsack-the-pr... http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th...

[mgarfias]

I'm pretty sure that if I was a girl dad would have still snuck me into play advent on the work mainframe.

[wpietri]

Sure, but what would have other people said? At least for the ones I visited, those environments were pretty gender-imbalanced. The guys did the smart work. Women did clerical work. Would you have internalized it?

Would a secretary have tried to get you to play with dolls? Would one of the programmers have told you that you'd make a fine keypunch girl? Would an aunt have told your parents that you should be doing something more appropriate?

Even now, kids get a ton of gender policing. Back then, there was a lot more of it. And one of my privileges is that my technical interests happened to match my gender role.

[theorique]

Thank you!