[nraynaud]

My bullshit de tectector is twiddling. 1) Uruguay is only close to BsAs 2) passing everything on the Kirchners without talking of either the dictature or Menem and the mess he created seems a bit disonhest, because there is no simple way out 3) don't forget that Cuba and Venezuela are actively sabotaged by the most powerful country in the world, we have no independent mesure of their government actions without foreign interference.

There is no easy way out for Argentina, and fleeing the country being for Chile or the US is not helping anything.

[rorra]

1) And Brasil to Misiones, Jujuy to Bolivia, You also have Chile and other countries without money restrictions. Yet most business are made in Buenos Aires, and there is still a lot of people that doesn't live close to the borders and that it won't be a solution for them, yet it will be a way to get around this restriction if you live close to the border.

2) Luckily I don't have to talk much about Menem and the military, because they are not at the power anymore :) And I'm most worried for the current politics, than the politics for 10-20 years ago, yet I still wanted to talk a little about the background of the current president. Actually Menem still has a seat in the senate, could you remind me who is he aligned with at the moment? I'll give you a clue: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e6yqY3d7JA0/TY9oVCxqzLI/AAAAAAAABi...

3) And I also don't forget all other other countries whose example we can follow, like Chile, Brasil and so on. Following Cuba and Venezuela examples/politics its just bad business and bad politics, specially if it risk you to a "USA" economic ban ;)

I agree that leaving the country won't help the current situation in Argentine, but I also understand that most people with the studies and the experience is starting to leave the country, most of my developer friends started to leave the country this year. But feel free to go to Argentine, earn a salary in the local currency for your hard work, without being able to take your money out of the country and looking for a way to save your savings from the inflation. And good luck trying to gets investors if you plan to develop a company, specially at the time where you will have to explain them how you plan to give them back their investment and earnings with the current restrictions.

[pmelendez]

>"don't forget that Cuba and Venezuela are actively sabotaged by the most powerful country in the world,"

Funny thing that you claimed to have a bullshit detector and you wrote this. As a Venezuelan I even find it offensive.

How come that the "most powerful country in the world" is sabotaging Venezuela? By being its main client? There are way more convenient oil producers out there and still the business relationship is held.

In any case, please leave the politics outside of HN. We (Venezuelans) have to deal with enough politics BS and we don't need more, specially in a technical forum.

[spikels]

1) BA is not only the political and business capital but has 40% of the population and is 10 times larger than the next biggest city.

2) Menem was last president in 1999 and the last dictator was in 1983. The Kirchners have run Argentina continuously for a decade. They are responsible for many of Argentina's current problems.

3) The US is not sabotaging either Cuba or Argentina. Like in Argentina their leaders have done a fine job by themselves.

[CaptainZapp]

  3) The US is not sabotaging either Cuba or Argentina. Like in Argentina their leaders have done a fine job by themselves.

This is, charitably put extremely revisionist and factually just plain wrong.

Or how would you describe the longest running trade embargo on the planet (since 1960 and since 1962 practically a total embargo) if not sabotaging a country?

You can argue that communism and the Castros where terrible for the island, but arguing that the US did not sabotage Cuba and hurt the Cuban economy as viciously as possible is just flat out wrong and historical revisionism of the worst kind.

[spikels]

Of course the trade embargo has harmed the Cuban economy and personally I think it should have been ended long ago. However a trade embargo is not sabotage and there were reasons why it was originally put in place (Cuban missile crisis, expropriation of US property). As usual the US political leadership has failed to recognize the failure of its policies and make any changes[1]. Actual sabotage against Cuba probably ended in the 1960s and may have continued somewhat longer but certainly ended decades ago[2].

However it is important to understand that most of the harm to the Cuban economy was done by its own government. Why? Because these policies have keep them in power for over 50 years. The Castro regime itself (not the Cuban people or economy) actually benefits from the embargo by being able to blame the US for everything wrong with their economy. In fact most of these problems are actually due to communist policies known long ago not to work and adopted purely on ideology[3].

[1] http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/time-end- cuba-embargo

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Project

[3] http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/how-much-does-the-mark...

These are just a sample of the many resources available online. I encourage anyone interested to do your own research and be sure to examine sources with multiple points of view (Cato is libertarian (some would say right) while De Long is generally considered progressive or left). As great as HN is it is often contains incorrect information on basic facts and interpretation of events.

[CaptainZapp]

Thanks for clarifying your point. This makes it not only much more digestable, but sounds actually quite reasonable.

  However a trade embargo is not sabotage and there were reasons why it was originally put in place 

That's probably a difference of perspective, or opinion. In a way - and in my perception - an embargo towards a country is a form of sabotage. No need to nitpick this point, though.

While the reason for the embargo is well documented and quite understandable. The main reason why it's going on for so long is probably the massive and unproportionally large influence of the Cuban exile community. A lot of them pretty unsavory types.

Also, while I don't want to defend the Castros it should be noted that Batista, his predecessor who came into this role by a coup (he was elected president in the 40s, but would'nt stand a chance to be re-elected, so he putshed) was not a friend of the people and that the revolution had huge popular support.

In any case: thanks for the links. I don't really care if an argument comes from the left, or the right as long it's well layed out and soundly reasoned. As a matter of fact I read a few quite good papers and essays by the Cato Institute, even though we're certainly not on the same page politically (it yet needs to be seen where they move to, when the Kochs succeed with their takeover, though).

Cheers, interesting discussion.

[xr09]

(Cuban in Cuba here)

The Cuban exile is really hurting the country, sometimes I see US and Cuba leaders try to make things up and some guy from Miami comes out and mess the whole thing, there is so much hate, nothing good comes out of this.

[nraynaud]

I think you're right on the first 2 points actually. I'm skewed towards smaller cities because I don't like big capitals, and I should not project that on analysis of the situation. And It's been 10 years now, with a good majority since 2007, it's time to see some results.

[nraynaud]

scratch that, the Kirchners doubled the GNP, the debt went from 160% to 40% of the GNP, and unemployment from 25% down to 8% (less than here in France). These are results.

[rorra]

And according to the government, Argentine poverty index its of 5.4% (sooner or later people from Switzerland will start migrating to our country, we are in a better shape than them), and the inflation is 10% every year. At least that's what the government say. The agencies who used to metric the inflation, got an economic fine from the government, the government don't even let you to advertise the price of food.

Do you know for real what's the unemployment index? Can we ask that to the economic minister? This is our economic minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmoOnEIzU18

Definitely the situation is much better than in 2001, we know that, we hear that every day, every time you say something is not right, or that you complain, you hear "hey, you wanna get back to the 2001?".

The answer is always the same "I don't want to get back to the 80s, or 90s, or to the 2001, and neither the lack of freedom of Venezuela or the communism from Cuba".

Yet the debt restructuring was a great deal, and we have to thank all the people who have lend money to us on the past and that accepted that we were going to pay only 25-30% of the original debt at a longer term.

You know, I can own the bank 140% of my income, and if I made them to accept that I’m just going to pay 25% of what I own them (or go broke and pay nothing at all), I’ll get my debt to 35% of my income. Certainly, it was a great deal for Argentine, but it doesn't mean that the country did so good that it was able to pay the debt.

[alpeb]

I feel for you. It doesn't stop to amaze me how people still defend those countries economical models, just to spite the "evil empire" in the north it seems, because they don't make any sense. The video you post is indisputable. Also, Venezuela is currently suffering toilet paper shortage. Their government is saying it's because people are eating more and thus shitting more. That's the kind of arguments governments pull out here south. Frigging failed countries, one just has to flee as soon as one has the chance.

[pmelendez]

"Their government is saying it's because people are eating more and thus shitting more"

I read that on Twitter yesterday but I couldn't find a source. Not that I don't believe because I had heard worse, but was it true? Who said that?

[patrickaljord]

> Definitely the situation is much better than in 2001

It is also better than in 2001 in Peru, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay and even Colombia. Those countries have had more than 5% economic growth, little inflation and with no crazy socialist policies. Also, Argentina was rock bottom in 2001 so they could only go up from there. Anyway, I totally sympathize with your situation. Tienes que ser fuerte y si las cosas se vuelven peor, largate de ahi, no hay porque sentirse culpable. Uruguay tiene playas bonitas :)