[CaptainZapp]

  3) The US is not sabotaging either Cuba or Argentina. Like in Argentina their leaders have done a fine job by themselves.

This is, charitably put extremely revisionist and factually just plain wrong.

Or how would you describe the longest running trade embargo on the planet (since 1960 and since 1962 practically a total embargo) if not sabotaging a country?

You can argue that communism and the Castros where terrible for the island, but arguing that the US did not sabotage Cuba and hurt the Cuban economy as viciously as possible is just flat out wrong and historical revisionism of the worst kind.

[spikels]

Of course the trade embargo has harmed the Cuban economy and personally I think it should have been ended long ago. However a trade embargo is not sabotage and there were reasons why it was originally put in place (Cuban missile crisis, expropriation of US property). As usual the US political leadership has failed to recognize the failure of its policies and make any changes[1]. Actual sabotage against Cuba probably ended in the 1960s and may have continued somewhat longer but certainly ended decades ago[2].

However it is important to understand that most of the harm to the Cuban economy was done by its own government. Why? Because these policies have keep them in power for over 50 years. The Castro regime itself (not the Cuban people or economy) actually benefits from the embargo by being able to blame the US for everything wrong with their economy. In fact most of these problems are actually due to communist policies known long ago not to work and adopted purely on ideology[3].

[1] http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/time-end- cuba-embargo

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Project

[3] http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/10/how-much-does-the-mark...

These are just a sample of the many resources available online. I encourage anyone interested to do your own research and be sure to examine sources with multiple points of view (Cato is libertarian (some would say right) while De Long is generally considered progressive or left). As great as HN is it is often contains incorrect information on basic facts and interpretation of events.

[CaptainZapp]

Thanks for clarifying your point. This makes it not only much more digestable, but sounds actually quite reasonable.

  However a trade embargo is not sabotage and there were reasons why it was originally put in place 

That's probably a difference of perspective, or opinion. In a way - and in my perception - an embargo towards a country is a form of sabotage. No need to nitpick this point, though.

While the reason for the embargo is well documented and quite understandable. The main reason why it's going on for so long is probably the massive and unproportionally large influence of the Cuban exile community. A lot of them pretty unsavory types.

Also, while I don't want to defend the Castros it should be noted that Batista, his predecessor who came into this role by a coup (he was elected president in the 40s, but would'nt stand a chance to be re-elected, so he putshed) was not a friend of the people and that the revolution had huge popular support.

In any case: thanks for the links. I don't really care if an argument comes from the left, or the right as long it's well layed out and soundly reasoned. As a matter of fact I read a few quite good papers and essays by the Cato Institute, even though we're certainly not on the same page politically (it yet needs to be seen where they move to, when the Kochs succeed with their takeover, though).

Cheers, interesting discussion.

[xr09]

(Cuban in Cuba here)

The Cuban exile is really hurting the country, sometimes I see US and Cuba leaders try to make things up and some guy from Miami comes out and mess the whole thing, there is so much hate, nothing good comes out of this.