[shawnee_]

Retainers are a great way to add security to what is ( or can be ) a pretty uncertain financial path, however they don’t come without risks. You have to make sure any retainer you agree to works for both you and the client. If the client is asking for 24/7 on call support you either need to refuse, or charge enough for this support that you could then afford another two of you to look after the customer.

The best solution I've found is to require a Good Faith Deposit. ( http://www.hackeress.com/goodfaith ) For this, charge ~ what you'd charge for 1 day of work, even if the client just wants to meet "for coffee". It's really hard to draw the line where the chitchat ends and the actual work / scope-framing / brainstorming begins. How many times have interviewers brought in or set up phone interviews with people they have zero intention of hiring, just to "pick their brains"? I ended up learning the hard way that this happens way too often. By the time I figured it out, I was out a lot of wasted time. (WePay and a couple other companies did this to me after my post here on HN awhile ago).

I call it a Good Faith deposit because even though non-contractual meetings of Good Faith should be the norm, they're _not_. Getting viciously screwed over as an employee and a contractor (and even as an interviewee) more than a couple times brings this harsh reality into focus. So I made a decision going forward: the ONLY kind of clients I want to team with are those willing to respect my time and experience enough to work with me in Good Faith.

[auctiontheory]

It's a nice idea, especially if the client is an individual, but most corporate HR and accounting systems are not set up to pay this kind of deposit in advance of considerable paperwork.

I hope I'm wrong - counterexamples welcome.

[damoncali]

Every accounting department (that is, every company big enough to have an accounting department) I've ever worked with wanted a contract number on my invoice. If you're not in the system, you aren't getting paid. And you're doing well to get net 30, let alone upfront. I don't think this would fly with my individual clients either.

Interesting thought, though. I've always considered the first few hours as part of the cost of sales. At some point you just stop and say, "we need a contact". Until then, it's marketing. Not saying that's the only or best way to do it, but it seems to be the usual way.

[tonyedgecombe]

If you take a hard line with the purchasing department they will usually bend. Buying services isn't like buying commodities, they can't go to another supplier to buy Damon's time and they have to buy because that is their job.

[damoncali]

Admittedly, I've never forced the issue. Maybe I should.

[ahoyhere]

A better approach is to meet for an hour or two max, don't give any advice, simply gather information. Tell them up front that your proposal, with implementation details, costs $5,000 (or whatever). Then don't give them any recommendations except in the proposal. After they pay for the proposal, they can use it with any contractor… but in all the times I've used it, no one has ever hired anyone else but me.

This is itself a small gig/contract and the HR departments etc. are set up to pay for these things.

If people are "screwing you over" during interviews, you may need to zip your lips. Charging a fee before "meeting for coffee" is not a good solution… simply not giving away the milk for free, on the other hand, is.

[tptacek]

Or, don't do this. Other professionals (accountants, lawyers) will happily meet with you for an hour or so and give advice without charging anything. Consider being like them.

It's not unfair to charge for a proposal (and the process that generates it), but it's unusual, and it creates a large risk that the client has to shoulder (if I don't like your proposal, then what? The proposal is most of what I have to go on for how good a fit you are in the first place!)

I wouldn't do business with a contractor that demanded payment for proposals. I say this as the operator of a business in which proposals are seriously expensive to generate. I wrote a large proposal last week after a series of phone meetings, and the proposal didn't generate any business. Oh well! That's life in the big leagues.

[ahoyhere]

Worked for me, for big name clients like Ford, Pepsi, TBWA/Chiat Day, Bear Stearns, etc., as well as smaller ones. We really met for more than 2 hours, but after the initial contract was signed for the proposal. That includes lots of investigation time. My proposals included specific implementation details, milestones, and usually wireframes.

I was amused to find out that my architect/builder does the same -- I'm paying him $5,000 to dig holes, poke holes in things, survey, price materials, order samples, talk to craftsmen, deal with the planning board etc. and at the end if I decide I don't want to use those plans with him, I can use it to competitively price other architect/builders. But chances are very high I won't, because he's delivering exactly the level of detail and care I want to see.