[shanelja]

I wonder how you fall in to these categories, for instance, Ruby and PHP were developed around the same time (though Rails obviously came later) yet Ruby is such a "cooler language" so it can't be due simply to age.

I think a lot of it is Silicone Valley's attitude to being different to the rest of the world, the majority of sites are built in PHP? Sweet, let's go with something funky and different!

It's a great attitude to have for creating cool new things, I suppose, but it feels like it's moving too fast for me to keep up, is Node.js not cool anymore? What about Backbone? Lua? what the hell is Hadoop? How about a new Lisp?

[doktrin]

I don't think it's "just" SV. On the whole, IME, Ruby (and Rails by immediate extension) appears to be a little more popular in the US than in Europe. I can't speak to other developer communities.

For instance, I was immediately struck upon visiting family in Norway that vanishingly few shops use Ruby, and surprisingly many use .NET. I had also just finished interviewing for an opportunity on mainland Europe for a shop that uses Perl as its production language.

[Ovid]

There are actually tons of shops that use Perl here in Europe. It's quite popular, though it's not going to hit Java or C levels of popularity.

I lived in London and there were always tons of Perl jobs there and here in Paris, I'm shocked to find out that there are far more Perl jobs than I expected. It also appears to be moderately popular in Germany.

So yeah, Perl may also be "off the radar" for many people, but it's still a strong market. Interestingly I'm seeing Perl dev pay scales getting pushed up because because there was a rush of devs going to other languages a few years ago. Now there's a shortage of Perl devs but the code hasn't gone away.

[kamaal]

Curious to know how many new Perl projects are started these days, compared to something like say Python.

Its not very interesting to be known as a Perl developer if all there is left to do is maintain legacy code.

[Ovid]

My current company isn't very old and they start new projects in Perl all the time. I'm leaving in May to go freelance and my first contract is with a startup in London who's work is in Perl. I also know about http://www.nestoria.co.uk/, a very successful startup that's written in Perl. Still, these are anecdotes and not data.

I hear about new Perl companies and positions all the time, but given that I've found myself specializing in Perl and watching the market (since I'm going freelance), I might be seeing this more than most. That being said, everything I've seen about Perl suggests that the language's main issue is that it's been so successful that many competitors have arisen and taken some market share. (Of course, the language can be quite ugly at times, but I try to encapsulate the ugliness when I can, so most people don't see it in my code).

[symkat]

https://github.com/languages

As primarily a Perl programer, I'd say there is a fairly even split between times I'm maintaining older code and writing new code in work environments. I've played with Ruby and Python a bit (by no means extensively), and when I started a web service last month (http://www.weightgrapher.com) I used Perl.

Dancer (Web framework), DBIx::Class (ORM), and other new tools make things pretty awesome; Perl isn't all CGI.pm scripts anymore.

[fennecfoxen]

Existing Perl shops start new projects in Perl. e.g. http://www.shutterstock.com/jobs.mhtml (which, to be fair, also starts new projects in node.js, ruby, and other things.)

[doktrin]

My hunch, based in part on a few single point observations as well as this thread, is that not too many new projects are using Perl.

When I asked a prospective employer why they were using Perl, the answer was in effect that it was legacy from the late 90's. I never got the impression that this legacy was an onerous impediment, however. Given the scale at which they operate, switching languages & ecosystems would be costly - and (again, due to scale) they've built up a number of customized solutions using Perl that would be time consuming to port.

IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late.

[kbenson]

> IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late.

I might, if I knew what your point was. There's just a vague implication that the language and it's ecosystem are substandard to Ruby and Python. Apparently you think it's self evident, so doesn't require explanation, but I don't feel that way, so I'm not sure what to address.

Mind supplying some examples of what you feel Perl is lacking in comparison?

To jump start it, I've been using Mojolicious[1] lately, and find it a dream to work in. And of course, being able to pull from CPAN is a plus.

[1]: http://mojolicio.us/

[doktrin]

>There's just a vague implication that the language and it's ecosystem are substandard to Ruby and Python. Apparently you think it's self evident, so doesn't require explanation

To turn the question on its head, why should anyone choose Perl over the alternatives? I honestly have never seen a reason to switch. Not terribly many others have either, as of late. I will attempt to lay out some of my reasoning.

When evaluating a new language & ecosystem, I tend to look for an active and welcoming community, a large selection of actively maintained libraries, and lastly a language that is interesting and/or fun to develop in. I can't really pontificate with authority on how Perl fares with regards to the above 3, but I will share my perception. Feel free to contradict (of course).

1. Community : there's no doubt Perl's community has taken a bit of a hit over the last n years population wise. In addition, the Perl community has, anecdotally, a reputation for being a bit terse [1]. Nothing cut and dry here, but again nothing that stands out IMHO.

2. Libraries : by extension of a diminishing pool of active contributors, it stands to reason some modules may not be as actively supported as their counterparts in other languages. This is compounded by the uncertain state of the language's version (5,6,7?)

3. Language : I personally have enjoyed coding in Perl, and am not really too intimidated by its historical warts. It's quite possible to write readable Perl, so write-only accusations are of little concern (to me).

Notes :

* Versioning : As an outsider, the current state of Perl's versioning is confusing. Perl 6 has been in development for over a decade, and I've seen mention of Perl 5.2 being released as Perl 7. None of this reflects positively on the language as a whole as it raises concerns about future proofing and maintainability.

* Mojolicious : Looks nice. My only concern would be that, based on the GitHub commit history, it is overwhelmingly governed and contributed to by a single individual. More so than even Rails, and significantly more so than Django. This isn't necessarily a negative, but I'd certainly want to trust him before building a production app using his tool.

[1] http://blogs.perl.org/users/joel_berger/2012/10/why-people-d...

[rjbond3rd]

Hi doktrin,

Regarding -new- Perl projects, take a peek at the Mojolicious web framework [0] (because nearly everything using it is a new Perl project). It's the most fun I've had in years.

If nothing else, the Mojocasts [1] will probably bring a smile to your face (personally, I laughed out loud at times because it's so strangely simple and brilliant).

0. http://mojolicio.us/ 1. http://mojocasts.com/

[vidarh]

Norways tech sector is small enough that it is severely dominated by entrenched interests with a Microsoft background, much more so than in larger countries. The places that tends to use Ruby tends to at least have started doing so when small, and the number of startups in Norway is vanishingly small simply because we're a small country.

(I'm from Oslo, but moved one of the startups I co-founded to London 13 years ago...)

[doktrin]

Interesting. As a Norwegian who has never actually lived in Norway (although I have visited often and speak Norwegian) I would love to pick your brain about the tech scene there. My email is in my profile if you have a few moments to spare.

[pimeys]

Ruby and Rails seem to be very popular here in Berlin IT scene. Still PHP and Java are a bit more popular, but it's not so hard to find work if you're a good Ruby engineer.

http://marsjobs.net/positions

[kushti]

What's about Scala community in Berlin?

[arkitaip]

There's also the question of population and total market size...

[nathan_long]

>> I think a lot of it is Silicone Valley's attitude to being different to the rest of the world, the majority of sites are built in PHP? Sweet, let's go with something funky and different!

I don't think that's it. Personally, I switched from PHP to Ruby because 1) Ruby seemed like a great language and 2) I saw a lot of excitement about Rails and 3) it seemed like a marketable skill.

But a few people had to decide #1 for #2 and #3 to happen. I think any new technology gets its initial hype because of some merits it has, even if the hype later gets out of hand.

[gngeal]

"It's a great attitude to have for creating cool new things, I suppose, but it feels like it's moving too fast for me to keep up, is Node.js not cool anymore? What about Backbone? Lua? what the hell is Hadoop? How about a new Lisp?"

As far as the last part is concerned, what about R7RS Small, and later R7RS Large?