[doktrin]

I don't think it's "just" SV. On the whole, IME, Ruby (and Rails by immediate extension) appears to be a little more popular in the US than in Europe. I can't speak to other developer communities.

For instance, I was immediately struck upon visiting family in Norway that vanishingly few shops use Ruby, and surprisingly many use .NET. I had also just finished interviewing for an opportunity on mainland Europe for a shop that uses Perl as its production language.

[Ovid]

There are actually tons of shops that use Perl here in Europe. It's quite popular, though it's not going to hit Java or C levels of popularity.

I lived in London and there were always tons of Perl jobs there and here in Paris, I'm shocked to find out that there are far more Perl jobs than I expected. It also appears to be moderately popular in Germany.

So yeah, Perl may also be "off the radar" for many people, but it's still a strong market. Interestingly I'm seeing Perl dev pay scales getting pushed up because because there was a rush of devs going to other languages a few years ago. Now there's a shortage of Perl devs but the code hasn't gone away.

[kamaal]

Curious to know how many new Perl projects are started these days, compared to something like say Python.

Its not very interesting to be known as a Perl developer if all there is left to do is maintain legacy code.

[Ovid]

My current company isn't very old and they start new projects in Perl all the time. I'm leaving in May to go freelance and my first contract is with a startup in London who's work is in Perl. I also know about http://www.nestoria.co.uk/, a very successful startup that's written in Perl. Still, these are anecdotes and not data.

I hear about new Perl companies and positions all the time, but given that I've found myself specializing in Perl and watching the market (since I'm going freelance), I might be seeing this more than most. That being said, everything I've seen about Perl suggests that the language's main issue is that it's been so successful that many competitors have arisen and taken some market share. (Of course, the language can be quite ugly at times, but I try to encapsulate the ugliness when I can, so most people don't see it in my code).

[symkat]

https://github.com/languages

As primarily a Perl programer, I'd say there is a fairly even split between times I'm maintaining older code and writing new code in work environments. I've played with Ruby and Python a bit (by no means extensively), and when I started a web service last month (http://www.weightgrapher.com) I used Perl.

Dancer (Web framework), DBIx::Class (ORM), and other new tools make things pretty awesome; Perl isn't all CGI.pm scripts anymore.

[fennecfoxen]

Existing Perl shops start new projects in Perl. e.g. http://www.shutterstock.com/jobs.mhtml (which, to be fair, also starts new projects in node.js, ruby, and other things.)

[doktrin]

My hunch, based in part on a few single point observations as well as this thread, is that not too many new projects are using Perl.

When I asked a prospective employer why they were using Perl, the answer was in effect that it was legacy from the late 90's. I never got the impression that this legacy was an onerous impediment, however. Given the scale at which they operate, switching languages & ecosystems would be costly - and (again, due to scale) they've built up a number of customized solutions using Perl that would be time consuming to port.

IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late.

[kbenson]

> IMHO, given the state of the language & its ecosystem as compared to its closest cousins (Ruby & Python), I can't really see why any new projects would be started in Perl. If anyone has a counter point I would certainly love to hear it, as I will freely admit to not having had much interaction with the Perl community as of late.

I might, if I knew what your point was. There's just a vague implication that the language and it's ecosystem are substandard to Ruby and Python. Apparently you think it's self evident, so doesn't require explanation, but I don't feel that way, so I'm not sure what to address.

Mind supplying some examples of what you feel Perl is lacking in comparison?

To jump start it, I've been using Mojolicious[1] lately, and find it a dream to work in. And of course, being able to pull from CPAN is a plus.

[1]: http://mojolicio.us/

[doktrin]

>There's just a vague implication that the language and it's ecosystem are substandard to Ruby and Python. Apparently you think it's self evident, so doesn't require explanation

To turn the question on its head, why should anyone choose Perl over the alternatives? I honestly have never seen a reason to switch. Not terribly many others have either, as of late. I will attempt to lay out some of my reasoning.

When evaluating a new language & ecosystem, I tend to look for an active and welcoming community, a large selection of actively maintained libraries, and lastly a language that is interesting and/or fun to develop in. I can't really pontificate with authority on how Perl fares with regards to the above 3, but I will share my perception. Feel free to contradict (of course).

1. Community : there's no doubt Perl's community has taken a bit of a hit over the last n years population wise. In addition, the Perl community has, anecdotally, a reputation for being a bit terse [1]. Nothing cut and dry here, but again nothing that stands out IMHO.

2. Libraries : by extension of a diminishing pool of active contributors, it stands to reason some modules may not be as actively supported as their counterparts in other languages. This is compounded by the uncertain state of the language's version (5,6,7?)

3. Language : I personally have enjoyed coding in Perl, and am not really too intimidated by its historical warts. It's quite possible to write readable Perl, so write-only accusations are of little concern (to me).

Notes :

* Versioning : As an outsider, the current state of Perl's versioning is confusing. Perl 6 has been in development for over a decade, and I've seen mention of Perl 5.2 being released as Perl 7. None of this reflects positively on the language as a whole as it raises concerns about future proofing and maintainability.

* Mojolicious : Looks nice. My only concern would be that, based on the GitHub commit history, it is overwhelmingly governed and contributed to by a single individual. More so than even Rails, and significantly more so than Django. This isn't necessarily a negative, but I'd certainly want to trust him before building a production app using his tool.

[1] http://blogs.perl.org/users/joel_berger/2012/10/why-people-d...

[kbenson]

> To turn the question on its head, why should anyone choose Perl over the alternatives? I honestly have never seen a reason to switch.

Was that the implication of the original statement? When you said you didn't see much reason for a new project to be started in Perl, I took that as any new project, even in a shop that has prior Perl experience, not a project where you are specifically looking for something different than our prior language.

Indeed, if you are already using one of Perl/Python/Ruby, I'm not sure I see a reason to switch from any one of those to any other.

If on the other hand you actually meant "When starting a new project, I see no reason to use Perl regardless of whether that's where you have experience", then we still have a discussion worth having.

> 1. Community : there's no doubt Perl's community has taken a bit of a hit over the last n years population wise. In addition, the Perl community has, anecdotally, a reputation for being a bit terse [1]. Nothing cut and dry here, but again nothing that stands out IMHO.

Did you actually read that link, or just read a section title and assume it made your point? Because the author updated that section saying that he really can't talk much on that point, because he wasn't there, and the evidence shows it to have been fairly civil.

That said, Sebastian does have a bit of a reputation for being "terse". But that's one person. Since when does one person define a whole community?

> 2. Libraries : by extension of a diminishing pool of active contributors, it stands to reason some modules may not be as actively supported as their counterparts in other languages. This is compounded by the uncertain state of the language's version (5,6,7?)

You have a lot of assumptions, and are using them as the basis for more assumptions. How much has the community decreased? What percentage of the community that are still active are contributors of modules, compared to similar communities of other languages?

Or, just look at some data: https://metacpan.org/recent Feel free to change the filter on the left to new distributions, not just new releases, to get an idea of how much active development is going on. It may be more or less than other languages, but I think what's shown should be sufficient to disabuse you of the notion that no development is going on.

As for the the version number, this is a non-issue. There is no issue of version numbers, it's a solved problem. Some people in the community occasionally bring it up because it's a sore spot, and it gets a lot of play in the tech media sites, but it's really rather simple (if different than most other languages). Perl 5 is Perl 5, and will stay so unless someone forks it and competes. Perl 6 is a new language, intended as both a successor and a companion to Perl 5. People are NOT expected to migrate Perl 5 code to Perl 6, it is a different language. This has nothing to do with the state of the language's future. Perl 5 is still being developed. Perl 6 is still being developed. Both are available, and useful, for specific subsets of uses. For Perl 6 that happens to be a somewhat smaller subset currently because of performance issues, and some portions of the spec still being fleshed out (this is a different discussion).

> 3. Language : I personally have enjoyed coding in Perl, and am not really too intimidated by its historical warts. It's quite possible to write readable Perl, so write-only accusations are of little concern (to me).

Agreed.

> * Versioning : As an outsider, the current state of Perl's versioning is confusing. Perl 6 has been in development for over a decade, and I've seen mention of Perl 5.2 being released as Perl 7. None of this reflects positively on the language as a whole as it raises concerns about future proofing and maintainability.

Blame tech media sites for taking an internal community discussion, misunderstanding the state of things, taking random suggestions from people as real community movements, and playing it up for page views. I'm sure we can agree the media isn't infallible.

I'll agree that Perl 6 is unfortunately named. If you know the eventual goals (Perl 5 interoperability) the name makes a bit more sense, but it has caused some in the Perl 5 community to feel constrained to a version number (thus the talk of Perl 7). In the end, this is a marketing problem (which is why you see it from the outside).

> * Mojolicious : Looks nice. My only concern would be that, based on the GitHub commit history, it is overwhelmingly governed and contributed to by a single individual. More so than even Rails, and significantly more so than Django. This isn't necessarily a negative, but I'd certainly want to trust him before building a production app using his tool.

There's a fair number of other people that have committed[2], but I won't argue the impression that it looks to be primarily Sebastian (even if there's supposedly 4-5 core developers, according to changelog notices). That said, from your earlier link that explained him leaving the core Catalyst team[1], he started Catalyst, so he's got some experience in this area.

I feel fairly certain others would step up to the plate if he couldn't commit as much.

[1] http://blogs.perl.org/users/joel_berger/2012/10/why-people-d...

[2] https://github.com/kraih/mojo/contributors

[rjbond3rd]

Hi doktrin,

Regarding -new- Perl projects, take a peek at the Mojolicious web framework [0] (because nearly everything using it is a new Perl project). It's the most fun I've had in years.

If nothing else, the Mojocasts [1] will probably bring a smile to your face (personally, I laughed out loud at times because it's so strangely simple and brilliant).

0. http://mojolicio.us/ 1. http://mojocasts.com/

[vidarh]

Norways tech sector is small enough that it is severely dominated by entrenched interests with a Microsoft background, much more so than in larger countries. The places that tends to use Ruby tends to at least have started doing so when small, and the number of startups in Norway is vanishingly small simply because we're a small country.

(I'm from Oslo, but moved one of the startups I co-founded to London 13 years ago...)

[doktrin]

Interesting. As a Norwegian who has never actually lived in Norway (although I have visited often and speak Norwegian) I would love to pick your brain about the tech scene there. My email is in my profile if you have a few moments to spare.

[pimeys]

Ruby and Rails seem to be very popular here in Berlin IT scene. Still PHP and Java are a bit more popular, but it's not so hard to find work if you're a good Ruby engineer.

http://marsjobs.net/positions

[kushti]

What's about Scala community in Berlin?

[arkitaip]

There's also the question of population and total market size...