[doktrin]

> Self education may appeal to many of us here, but it applies to less than it appeals to.

That's missing the major point of the piece, IMHO. The OP isn't describing "self education", and (coming from a US perspective) is not even a typical drop out.

What's being described here is a vocational pattern of learning, where on-the-job experience is backed up with classroom instruction. That's not exactly what "drop out" or "self educated" imply in the US.

[keithpeter]

Yup. In the UK we are trying to reconstruct the 'dual system' and we have things that are called apprenticeships but not quite as well organised as the ones they have in Germany. The OP is not a drop-out. He has followed an established path!

[walshemj]

Ah you mean the Torry plan to bring back the 11 plus and ship off poor kids to dumbed down Modern Apprenticeships so they can stack shelves at safeway.

[meaty]

You hit the nail on the head.

Except they also have the "back to work scheme" which means they don't even have to pay them to stack shelves in safeway (or Morrisons as it now is).

[keithpeter]

Yes, that 'scheme' has lost me a really good student who was attending a college course off his own bat. He has been required to waste his time totally in a mickey mouse scheme that won't get him anywhere. We will try to catch him up when he is let out.

[meaty]

That sucks. My nephew managed to get out of it by calling his manager at Tesco "fucking spineless arse licking cunt". Worked wonders. He now fixes laptops at the local computer shop for a reasonable amount of cash.

[keithpeter]

No, I mean the real apprenticeships with companies like Siemens and GKN that you need a minimum of 5 GCSEs to get onto, and that lead to BTEC National Diploma then HND qualifications with 1 year degree conversion.

I accept your point that the word 'apprenticeship' has been made meaningless by our Present Leaders but there is some good stuff out there as well.

[walshemj]

But that is NOT an apprentice that is a Technician (aka Associate professional) doing the a traditional day release course (ONC/HNC/BTEC) for Technicians which is how I came into IT.

Clever apprentices would only go on to do this after doing there 4/5 years.

And ok my BTEC was a some what specialized one (mech eng with Thermofluids) but we looked down on the "apprentices" form the local Garages.

Though I suspect (borrowing John Cleses line) alowing "jumped up F%^&*ing Caterers" to devalue the term that fight is lost.

[keithpeter]

"But that is NOT an apprentice that is a Technician (aka Associate professional) doing the a traditional day release course (ONC/HNC/BTEC) for Technicians which is how I came into IT."

Actually, it is. The Ordinary National Certificate was replaced with the B/TEC National Diploma half a decade before I came into teaching in 1989. You must be a mature person!

And yes, the whole program takes 4 to 5 years. With another couple of full time years for degree top up.

Those programmes do still exist but I agree entirely with your point about the shelf-stacking and mickey mouse stuff the current administration are bringing in (as their political forefathers did in the 1980s).

[walshemj]

cough well I can still recall having to hand load the boot strap into our PDP 11's when the boot loader failed a couple of times.

And remember being dead jealous of the management school at Cranfield having 40!! color pc's donated by HP (this is pre IBM PC) - when we had 4 or 5 total.

[bromang]

the UK system is an extremely poor version of the German system. To implement an apprenticeship model, the state HAS to take direct control over the hiring of almost all entry level employees. otherwise the incentives and work culture is simply not in place for a large number of meaningful training opportunities to exist.

[barry-cotter]

The state doesn't control hiring in the German system. If you can't find someone to sponsor you for your apprenticeship that's your problem. The state does have to regulate the conditions of work much, much more than is the case in countries like Britain though. In Germany becoming a florist requires a three year apprenticeship and you can't open a florists without someone who has done said apprenticeship. Half-arsing it and just trying it out, entry level jobs that can serve as an entree into a good career without much in the way of formal training; these happen much less in Germany than in the Anglosphere.

[keithpeter]

Er, no, we need to rebuild some kind of manufacturing sector first! Then make sure companies have their own apprenticeship schemes (proper ones not the shelf stacking ones)

[bromang]

the vast majority of German apprenticeships are not in traditional industrial roles or trades like plumbing. the existence of quality post-school training opportunities has little to do with the existence of a strong manufacturing sector.