[_ddkb]

I understand the 12 step programs are not perfect. No program is perfect. I don't understand your point. Are you trying to say that I'm not addicted? It took me many years to realise that this is an addiction for me but it did help me to admit that. I do believe in that part of the program that it needs to be considered a problem before a person can work on improving it.

Edit: I can't respond to your comment below but thanks for your follow up.

[Falling3]

I'm not making any judgements on your own addictions - I'd never be that presumptuous. To be honest, I've only begun to look into AA's culture and theories. I feel it's an understatement to say that it's not perfect. Half of the steps specifically mention god - that does not sound like me like a necessary (or even helpful) part of treatment for alcoholism. People have also pointed out similarities between them and cults (which I have begun to see in the members that I know).

I don't know how I feel yet about the idea that someone is always an addict. I do know the fact that AA believes and teaches it is absolutely no reason to consider it to be factual.

[Falling3]

>Most of what you're saying about AA is false. 4 of the 12 steps mention God. And if you look deeper into the material, God is in reference to a Higher Power or "Power greater than ourselves."

>Some examples of a Higher Power can include: a sponsor, the group in general, a (big G or little g) god, a door knob. The principle is about believing in something greater than yourself.

No, it is not. Four of the steps use the word use the word "God", 1 uses only the word "Him" (and that obviously refers to the same thing), and 1 uses the word "Power" (notice the upper case).

The claim that these are intended to be anything "greater" than yourself such as a sponsor or the group clearly is not what is intended (and, from what I have heard, not what is taught). I don't know what the hell your door knob comment is about - I assume it was for comic effect.

http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf Read the steps. A sponsor is not going to remove our shortcoming or character defects. We don't pray to the group so that we might know their will. You're either ignorant of the actual teachings or being extremely disingenuous.

[gavingmiller]

When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. - pg 47 of The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous; Fourth Edition

One's own conception of God could be any of those things I listed. Personally, I have spent nearly 4 years in an AA group. So rest assured, I have read the steps.

As to what is taught - God referring to Allah, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. - depends on the group/person/persons you've received your information from. There is no governing body for AA, and every group is completely self sustaining. Individual traditions, teachings, and cultures grow naturally in each group providing slight variance from group to group. However the core will always come back to God being whatever you choose God to be.

[Falling3]

>One's own conception of God could be any of those things I listed.

The definition and teachings leave it open to your interepretation of God... to some extent. It still must comply with many Western concept of a god - loving, benevolent, intervening. You cannot follow those steps as they are laid out and pretend that substituting a sponsor, group, or door knob means the same thing. It just doesn't.

[gavingmiller]

Most of what you're saying about AA is false. 4 of the 12 steps mention God. And if you look deeper into the material, God is in reference to a Higher Power or "Power greater than ourselves."

Some examples of a Higher Power can include: a sponsor, the group in general, a (big G or little g) god, a door knob. The principle is about believing in something greater than yourself.

edit: AA has its roots in Christianity, however being in AA doesn't mean you have to be a Christian or a theist.

[snogglethorpe]

I went to AA meetings for a while with someone whose mother was an alcoholic (I don't really remember what this was supposed to accomplish, but...) and the atmosphere was kinda weird... the people there, at least, really did invoke god/jesus/etc a lot, and there was a funny sense they were looking for something to replace the alcohol, and jesus (etc) was a popular candidate... and there was a palpable sense of peer pressure to say similar things.

I suppose all this stuff varies from group to group, and no doubt the "official" stance is more neutral and well-considered. Still, after that experience, I'd feel a bit leery about recommending AA to someone who was vulnerable.

[euroclydon]

My father was in AA for nearly forty years and I had the opportunity to attend several meetings with him. I too thought the meetings and people were, at times, weird, and for similar reasons as you. Some people always referred to the H.P. as Jesus, and others as simply God or something less specific. But the one thing to keep in mind is that you and I were merely observers. We didn't feel in danger of being totally destroyed by alcohol. If we viewed AA as a program that could save our lives, our experience and opinions would be different.

[b1daly]

The twelve steps are only suggestions in AA. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking (and that you act reasonably civil towards others in the group) You don't have to believe anything, pay money, look a certain way, there is no authority beyond the immediate consensus of the group. You actually don't even have to stop drinking. The practitioners are fond of helpful aphorisms, repeated almost as mantras. One of my favorites: take what you need and leave the rest.

[illuminate]

"The twelve steps are only suggestions in AA"

As far as my experience goes in going to meetings with friends and watching their progress (or not), they are made to know that completing the steps is essential to their recovery/stability, even if "suggestions". It is a cultural process. Perhaps ones that can be completed at their leisure and ability, but it's still a ritual considered more require d than suggested.

[b1daly]

What you say is valid. Humans do group think, and the vast majority of people in AS view the "steps" as required. Not by any authority, but by their need for help. If you are not into that, it's harder to feel part of the club. But in the stated ideology of AA they are only suggestion. This is different from many other religious groups, who claim a unique and exclusive truth.

In practice, there is shockingly little authority exercised in AA there is literally no person or group who can kick someone out or impose sanctions on anyone.

I'm not saying it's not a weird group, it is, but it was founded by and populated by people who are in dire straights. It's not for everyone. I think it's an unfortunate development that attendance to AA is often compulsory by the legal system, social service system, and the treatment industry. But this is out of the control of AA, all are welcome who have a desire to stop drinking.

[BSousa]

I'm reading the Power of Habit and the author mentions AA. According to the theory of the book, for habits (drinking) to change permanently, people have to believe in something. According to the author, that ingrained belief of AA is what makes it work for so many people, but as mentioned, you can ignore god in the steps and replace it with something else (family, sponsor, local communities, etc).