[pg]

I think not. Haters are distinctive enough that it would make the language less expressive to discard the word and merge it into "critic."

I'm slow to adopt new words, but I think "hater" is a useful addition to the language, and not simply a pejorative version of "critic." The difference is that a critic is what you're called as a byproduct of being critical in a particular instance, whereas being a hater is an ongoing state of mind. So for example it is reasonable to say "he was sometimes a critic of the administration's policy" but not to say "he was sometimes a hater of the administration's policy."

"Hater" is not a pejorative version of "critic" so much as a negative version of "fan." In fact the distinctive thing about a hater is how uncritical his responses are.

[waterlesscloud]

Then isn't the word "haters" misapplied here?

What I've seen in this thread is that people have reasons for disliking Dustin, some of which directly relate to Svbtle. To the extent that they don't directly relate, though, people are quite explicitly saying they evaluate Svbtle separate from Dustin.

And by far the most common reaction expressed is a lack of understanding any valid business model for the network, which in your op you say is quite understandable.

What I don't see in this thread is any willful misconstruing of the project. Which seems to be the requirement for a "hater".

[pg]

HN users are sophisticated enough not to simply post comments saying "I hate Dustin Curtis." Here they resort to something more akin to concern trolling.

The way you can tell something is amiss is the volume of commenters who seem worried about e.g. how Dustin is going to make money. If most startups issued such a bland funding announcement, it would sink beneath the surface of HN with barely a ripple of comment.

[lmm]

I hate Dustin Curtis.

[tptacek]

Man I have never wanted to see a company succeed more than I want to see Curtis' thing succeed now. What a bunch of wangs you all are.

If this is some kind of genius nerd underdog sympathy marketing ploy, I've never seen it done better.

[lmm]

Underdog? Have you read anything the guy writes? He's like Kanye West but without the humility.

[sillysaurus]

So you made me curious. I went and had a look at Dustin's writing. Here's a piece entitled "Do".

=========================

Wake up early. Show up. Learn how to think. Be genuine, but appear nice. Use envy for motivation instead of destruction. Do what you say you’re going to do. Ensure balance in every area of your life. Confront repressed thoughts immediately. Surround yourself with people who are better than you (but remember the thing about envy). Work out every day. Be good at what you do. Make money doing what you love. Have good friends. Never settle.

--

Now, as far as I can tell, every aspect of that post is good advice. It's evident that Dustin's advice was derived from experience, because some his points are counter-intuitive-but-true (which tend to only be learned as a byproduct of screwing up). The advice seems to match my own experience as well, so it seems possible it may be broadly true and (and therefore broadly useful).

I don't know what demon you see in him, but you're wrong.

Now, at this point, it seems only fair that we contrast Dustin's writing against someone else's writing. Let's use your writing, in fact.

So here's a piece you wrote, entitled "New Year - No Fun Allowed".

=========================

My resolution is to blog every day. Whoops, already missed that one. Make it every week, I guess.

Also, to finally launch the enormous white whale of a ship that I’ve been working on in Kerbal Space Program (which is what has kept me from here for so long). It will set all sorts of records, visit all the planets… I just need to have the damn thing not explode. I’m getting closer now; got as far as 20km, and the most recent launch was spoiled by pure bad luck (a piece I’d blown off the top of my rocket fell down back onto it).

You might think stuff like buying a flat or finding a job should be higher on the list than achieving something in a computer game. And you’d be right. But damned if it doesn’t feel like the other way around.

--

Eh... I was going to say some more stuff, but it appears you may be going through a rough period in your life.

This is something of a tangent, but: if you happen to want to talk with someone about what's on your mind nowadays, or if you just need someone to talk to, then please feel free to toss me an email. I'm happy to listen (if you want that) or to do whatever else I can.

Life can be rough, but don't let it break you, even if it seems hard not to.

[jspthrowaway2]

Really? Wondering how to monetize a blogazine is concern trolling driven by hating Dustin Curtis?

I worry that moderating this community has jaded you. (That's concern trolling.) It's a valid question, and one I'd ask of any blogazine that received funding; do you stick ads on it? Charge a subscription fee? Sell user data?

[pg]

Not all of it, no, but some of it. (The whole point of concern trolling is that the two are indistinguishable, so you only notice something's amiss when you see odd patterns.)

[swombat]

For what it's worth, though I posted a post concerned about how Svbtle will make money (with some analysis), I have nothing against Dustin and I wish him the best with Svbtle and other endeavours. Just can't see how this thing makes money later. As a blogger myself, I'm somewhat attracted by Svbtle (there is something desirable about it), but I can't see the sense of blogging there rather than on my own platform. It seems inferior in every way...

boggles

Svbtle is a strange puzzle.

[rohamg]

pg- when i first read your comments i was surprised at the categorical ad hominem dismissal of svbtle's critics. scrolling down, i see what u mean- the level of negativity and vitriol engendered by seemingly innocuous facts is surprisingly out of proportion. even for HN :) one wonders why the posters torture themselves so much. the internet has always been packed with garbage - but garbage to you can be treasure to me. don't like it? click the back button! it's always been that easy. it's almost as if these out of proportion "controversies" against svbtle are being manufactured by svbtle supporters in order to attract attention? sounds like it could work :)

[jspthrowaway2]

That's fair, I suppose. Probably a good sign for you, though, as you mentioned re: controversy.

[oh_sigh]

You are correct with your definition of hater. The problem is that your original post doesn't leave any room for critics who comprehend the svbtles game plan, but still find it unappealing. The implication from your post is that 1) a community misunderstanding exists, and 2) that misunderstanding is caused by either people not being intelligent enough to see what svbtle is doing, or people having a personal vendetta against Dustin.

[wmf]

We don't know what Svbtle's game plan is. We don't even know the set of all possible Svbtle business models (as some people are criticizing), because there are business models that haven't been invented yet.

[oh_sigh]

You are correct. But if that is the standard you hold critics to, as opposed to making statements based on all information available at a given time, then no critics would exist, because it is always possible for any group to enter unknown territory.

[jerrya]

My problem with the word hater, seeing how it's used at other sites, is that it stops any dialogue and dismisses even valid argument with a permanent label.

So earlier, I posted how I would like to know more about their business plan, because well, it seems hard to understand how they plan to make money. Now I have to worry my comments will be seen as critical and I will be lumped in as a "hater".

Because that's the behavior at other sites. "Hater" allows and encourages polarization.

(Also, I am not sure if on the spectrum hater is related to fan so much as it is related to fanboy.)

[diminish]

but 'hater' smells like a categorical ad hominem attack which may kill any critical thinking against someone 'you' like. neither 'i hate', nore 'you are hater' belong to a mindful discussion where experiences and reasonings collide, imho.

edit: despite saying that, i am indeed a curious follower of dustin curtis, which i learned during recent discussions, he was fiercely and mostly wrongly criticized. (namely, i have personal positive impression in my limbic system for him).

[graue]

Paul, I'm disappointed to see this from you. Calling someone a “hater”, no matter how carefully and eruditely you define the term, is still an ad hominem attack intended to dismiss their opinion. It's a DH1 on your disagreement hierarchy.

I visit Hacker News because, while not perfect, it does the best job of any internet forum I know of minimizing that kind of cheap attack. It worries me to see the person who created that forum publicly setting a bad example like this. You're basically saying, “ur all just haters, forget u guyz!!1” even if, superficially, the words you use seem smarter and more reasonable. And beyond being an unconvincing argument, I don't think it reflects well on you to be stooping so low (and flat-out insulting so many people) to defend your investment.

[nkohari]

Not to be pedantic, but the word "hater" typically refers to a person who dislikes someone out of jealousy.

I think a lot of people dislike Dustin Curtis not because they're jealous of his notoriety, but rather because of his attitude -- or at least the personality he projects on the internet.

[sachingulaya]

Although I disagree with pg's usage of 'hater'(it's arrogantly dismissive in this context) I thought I would provide the surprisingly poignant urbandictionary.com definition:

" A person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person.

Hating, the result of being a hater, is not exactly jealousy. The hater doesnt really want to be the person he or she hates, rather the hater wants to knock somelse down a notch."